Pats switching to zone blocking

[Seneschal2]

Seems like the Maroney and zone blocking subject was mentioned a while ago:

What does Maroney have to do...

Blocking Scheme

 

[JoeSixPat]

Seems like the Maroney and zone blocking subject was mentioned a while ago:

What does Maroney have to do...

Blocking Scheme

Good discussions there

First off, the Pats never stick to one "scheme" on offense or defense. Their is a basic philosophy of keeping your oppnents off-guard but I've seen everything from the 4-3 in a SB to no DL's and like 7 LB's all moving around taking no discernable position before the snap (against Jets?).

Granted the OL has had a primary philosophy toward the running game blocking for bruisers like Dillon and A.Smith (who did a solid but unspectacular job). They've shown they aren't afraid to run a draw with Faulk in the shotgun. They run screens, end arounds, reverses. Linemen pull, trap, misdirect.

My point is Maroney has a different style. The smart thing to do is adapt to it. Does it mean Maroney will never run a wham play? Bet he runs quite a few of those plays. The OL needs to figure out Maroney the same way Maroney needs to figure out what works best for him on the field behind this OL and TE and FB blockers.

"Zone Blocking" looks good on paper, but only translates so much on the field. You still have to figure out the opponents D. Where the pressure's coming from, who's playing run, who's dropping into coverage. Coaching and scheming mean nothing without the ability to adapt to the situation. Excecution is great when you predict the other teams reaction, but with 22 players on the field anything can happen. Offensive Lineman make many key plays outside the "scheme", we just overlook them.

It seems like most everyone sees and agrees that a Zone scheme fits Maroney's style the best. So I'm not saying you're wrong, but you are in a minority.

My perception is that many NFL teams, including BB coached teams, understand that they can ask their OL to be good at multiple schemes, or great at one. My only caveat is that Goal Line situations and other Special Teams circumstances are often developed, practiced and well implemented... but those are special cases.

I've even seen some BB coached teams that really seemed to place a lower priority on run blocking period, as opposed to Pass protection. The 2001 team seemed to really work hard to protect Brady and I felt like the run blocking suffered as a result. That often seemed necessary for any team with Drew Bledsoe as well - that the OL needed to prioritize pass protection at the expense of other aspects of the game.

So I believe it is wise to let the OL be great at a zone scheme rather than just good at zone and man2man

 

[jbb9s]

Around week 4 or so, when we destroyed the Bengles, Maroney went for 125 at about 8+ yds/carry. Against better defensive teams later in the season, CHI and SD for example, he averaged 2.5 and 1 even, respectively. I know injury was an issue and I'm not sure if that injury occured before week 14 when he sat out his first of two games (i.e. was he hurting against the Bears because he didn't sit out until after that game?) but I would say the OL didn't give him any help and no place to run. Based on the people here who watch a lot of tape of the OL, who all happen to think Light should be moved to RT and a stud LT should be taken on Day 1 or a RT should just be taken straight up, I would say that any blame towards Maroney would be unfair. Hopefully they make this conversion successfully and our vets can learn the system and run it like 3:1 Super Bowl favorites that the Pats are.

Also, what I didn't see mentioned on page 1 thru 4 on this thread is how losing the leagues best extra right tackle to Denver is going to hurt the running game because Brady is good at blocking but not Graham good.

 

[Pats726]

Just a point and this might have been covered..I agree that a change to zone blocking will help tailor to Marioney's style..but can an OL have a plan B mode...for goal line and straight ahead running situations?? OR does the Plan A zone suffer...???? How is a straight ahead runner in a zone vlocking situation?? Just curious if there is THAt large a difference?? And obviously if linemen can make teh switch as well OR will different skill sets be needed and thus more competitiveness for starting spots?? NOt knowing the ins and outs of these details...may change thoughts on overal needs...

 

[Bertil]

Denver and Indy had no problems running for TDs in the Red Zone. I expect that The Pats will do nothing but improve in this regard.

Last year they upgraded the overall Red Zone Offense and were successful in terms of numbers of RZ trips vs RZ TDs and FGs. This year, they are being more specific in upgrading the running game for all situations. At least that's how I see it.

The relatively smaller and more mobile O Lineman lend themselves more to the zone blocking scheme than to the straight ahead Mano e Mano style. Let's hope that they employ the stretch running style that features the play-action like their most prominant AFC rivals (the aforementioned Denver and Indy) do!

 

[Michigan Dave]

This is great news. Maroney came from a zone blocking team at Minnesota, a team that has that system down better than any I've seen. We actually implemented zone blocking at Michigan last year (in part to accommodate the running style of Mike Hart), and I found it to be quite successful. The key is making sure that your line functions cohesively, and is smart enough to pick up the different reads and make adjustments pre-snap. I think this will be no problem with the NE line. With the NFL offering pre-season games that college teams don't have the luxury of utilizing to help in scheme implementations, and minicamps and an extended training camp, I see no issues with this being in place and running well by week 1. A great change, and something that we as fans will be able to see right off the bat.

 

[unoriginal]

This is great news. Maroney came from a zone blocking team at Minnesota, a team that has that system down better than any I've seen. We actually implemented zone blocking at Michigan last year (in part to accommodate the running style of Mike Hart), and I found it to be quite successful. The key is making sure that your line functions cohesively, and is smart enough to pick up the different reads and make adjustments pre-snap. I think this will be no problem with the NE line. With the NFL offering pre-season games that college teams don't have the luxury of utilizing to help in scheme implementations, and minicamps and an extended training camp, I see no issues with this being in place and running well by week 1. A great change, and something that we as fans will be able to see right off the bat.

Since you've got inside knowledge about what it's like to make the switch, I'd like to badger you with the following question:

It is my understanding that zone blocking is actually easier, pre-snap, because there are little to no assignments for the line to change if the defensive front shifts - i.e. the line is moving through zones and the only tenant is to not allow a defender to cross your face. Obviously from your post you feel differently. I'm having trouble puttnig this into the form of a question, but anyway, why do you feel there will be a learning curve ahead?

 

[Michigan Dave]

Since you've got inside knowledge about what it's like to make the switch, I'd like to badger you with the following question:

It is my understanding that zone blocking is actually easier, pre-snap, because there are little to no assignments for the line to change if the defensive front shifts - i.e. the line is moving through zones and the only tenant is to not allow a defender to cross your face. Obviously from your post you feel differently. I'm having trouble puttnig this into the form of a question, but anyway, why do you feel there will be a learning curve ahead?

Well, it's easier in the thinking that each individual doesn't necessarily have a specific read. The basic theory behind zone blocking is that you have several lineman working cohesively to take out an area. Where it gets dicey is that you are adjusting techniques as opposed to assignments based on the defense's angles and stunting. So while a lineman isn't reading the defense necessarily for his pre-snap assignment changing, he's studying their alignment and adjusting the technique accordingly. Basically, the key to successful zone blocking is knowing your backs, knowing your offense, and working as a unit through repetition. You nailed it when you said the line moves through the zones and clears space that way. The defense is going to counter by taking different angles out of different stances. That's the adjustment I was referring to, and the learning curve that I see will be in read and recognition for guys who aren't used to the system. That's all.

Hope that was a little clearer?

 

[Bertil]

BTW, I wouldn't rule out Ryan Kalil (C from USC) in Round 1 in this case. He was reportedly best suited for a zone blocking Offense from the breakdowns I've seen by Mike Mayock on the NFL Network.

As always (in the Draft), expect the unexpected...

 

[Fixit]

BTW, I wouldn't rule out Ryan Kalil (C from USC) in Round 1 in this case. He was reportedly best suited for a zone blocking Offense from the breakdowns I've seen by Mike Mayock on the NFL Network.

As always (in the Draft), expect the unexpected...

What would they do with Koppen?

 

[zippo59]

C'mon Tune, as if my analysis on the subject left any room for people's imagination - not to mention our friendly exchanges.

How does what transpires this season constitute proof of anything in 2006? I agree that Maroney was productive in a zone scheme in college and can be expected to adjust well to one in the NFL, that doesn't exempt him from criticism in 2006 when he showed indecision in his running during the postseason. I was critical of Wilfork when he was pushing too hard, I'm at a loss to see how that is bashing? Unlike some who choose to rant about a player, sometimes years after the fact, I prefer to take a look at my digital recording of the television broadcast (a tip of the hat to sebby) and try to understand why something didn't work.

I, for one, am only questioning those who say we are switching to zone blocking because Maroney can't do well in in a man blocking scheme. He averaged 4.3 YPC and got 700 yards as a rookie in his first year in the scheme. He certainly was dissapointing in the playoffs, no argument there. I just don't get how people can make it so this switch to zone blocking is somehow a knock on Maroney. He was good in man blocking but apprently this is how the team feels he can be better. I don't get what is wrong with that.

 

[Michigan Dave]

I, for one, am only questioning those who say we are switching to zone blocking because Maroney can't do well in in a man blocking scheme. He averaged 4.3 YPC and got 700 yards as a rookie in his first year in the scheme. He certainly was dissapointing in the playoffs, no argument there. I just don't get how people can make it so this switch to zone blocking is somehow a knock on Maroney. He was good in man blocking but apprently this is how the team feels he can be better. I don't get what is wrong with that.

I agree. There's nothing wrong with upgrading. I mean, lets say you have a fine girl. Sure, she looks nice walking up and down the beach in that one piece. There's nothing at all wrong with that one piece. But if you have a nice, skimpy 2 piece laying around, and it's not going to take much work to change, might as well maximize the situation, no?

 

[zippo59]

I agree. There's nothing wrong with upgrading. I mean, lets say you have a fine girl. Sure, she looks nice walking up and down the beach in that one piece. There's nothing at all wrong with that one piece. But if you have a nice, skimpy 2 piece laying around, and it's not going to take much work to change, might as well maximize the situation, no?

Wonderful analogy, lol. :cool2:

 

[Don Kipines]

Zone bocking works much better with a back like Maroney. I think that's why Shanahan was so high on him. Zone-blocking favors the Pats personnel in general -- quick, athletic o-linemen who are practiced working together, and a one-cut back who has great speed. I'm kind of surprised the Pats weren't more of a zone-blocking team before. It's almost like we were playing a power-running game with zone-blocking personnel. You can see why BB likes smallish linemen -- they're great on screens and in pass protection -- but you don't get the most out of them in the running game if they have to stay in that man scheme all the time.

I love the zone idea for the Pats. Maroney is the perfect back for the inside zone-type run. They may have had their reasons for being a man team before, but Maroney is a special athlete, probably worth changing your offense for.

 

[unoriginal]

Well, it's easier in the thinking that each individual doesn't necessarily have a specific read. The basic theory behind zone blocking is that you have several lineman working cohesively to take out an area. Where it gets dicey is that you are adjusting techniques as opposed to assignments based on the defense's angles and stunting. So while a lineman isn't reading the defense necessarily for his pre-snap assignment changing, he's studying their alignment and adjusting the technique accordingly. Basically, the key to successful zone blocking is knowing your backs, knowing your offense, and working as a unit through repetition. You nailed it when you said the line moves through the zones and clears space that way. The defense is going to counter by taking different angles out of different stances. That's the adjustment I was referring to, and the learning curve that I see will be in read and recognition for guys who aren't used to the system. That's all.

Hope that was a little clearer?

That was clearer, thanks. I had assumed since the line has been together for a while now the "feel" of zone blocking should come quickly.

Kaczur and Hochstein I know both came from college programs that relied heavily on zone concepts, so that's at least two that should hit the ground running so to speak.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I, for one, am only questioning those who say we are switching to zone blocking because Maroney can't do well in in a man blocking scheme. He averaged 4.3 YPC and got 700 yards as a rookie in his first year in the scheme. He certainly was dissapointing in the playoffs, no argument there. I just don't get how people can make it so this switch to zone blocking is somehow a knock on Maroney. He was good in man blocking but apprently this is how the team feels he can be better. I don't get what is wrong with that.

Then we are in agreement, espcially given Dave's bikini visualization!

 

[JoeSixPat]

Well, it's easier in the thinking that each individual doesn't necessarily have a specific read. The basic theory behind zone blocking is that you have several lineman working cohesively to take out an area. Where it gets dicey is that you are adjusting techniques as opposed to assignments based on the defense's angles and stunting. So while a lineman isn't reading the defense necessarily for his pre-snap assignment changing, he's studying their alignment and adjusting the technique accordingly. Basically, the key to successful zone blocking is knowing your backs, knowing your offense, and working as a unit through repetition. You nailed it when you said the line moves through the zones and clears space that way. The defense is going to counter by taking different angles out of different stances. That's the adjustment I was referring to, and the learning curve that I see will be in read and recognition for guys who aren't used to the system. That's all.

Hope that was a little clearer?

A helpful description .... I couldn't put it into those words but from watching I understood its not a simple... "well we're just playing a zone" kindof like a zone defense... its very different, not exactly simple... and illustrates why OLs don't just "switch back and forth" between multiple schemes.

But again, I'd think that goal line offenses are different animals in which special teams are on the field and a straightahead knock 'em back RB would still be a great asset.

 

[OhExaulted1]

Good discussions there




It seems like most everyone sees and agrees that a Zone scheme fits Maroney's style the best. So I'm not saying you're wrong, but you are in a minority.

My perception is that many NFL teams, including BB coached teams, understand that they can ask their OL to be good at multiple schemes, or great at one. My only caveat is that Goal Line situations and other Special Teams circumstances are often developed, practiced and well implemented... but those are special cases.

I've even seen some BB coached teams that really seemed to place a lower priority on run blocking period, as opposed to Pass protection. The 2001 team seemed to really work hard to protect Brady and I felt like the run blocking suffered as a result. That often seemed necessary for any team with Drew Bledsoe as well - that the OL needed to prioritize pass protection at the expense of other aspects of the game.

So I believe it is wise to let the OL be great at a zone scheme rather than just good at zone and man2man

I'm not really trying to advocate for "man" or "zone" schemes. The point I was really trying to make is if your an OL, you need to move bodies out of the way. It doesn't matter what "scheme" your running if you can't accomplish the simple goal of blocking a defender with an angle on your RB.

X's and O's mean little if your line is being overpowered. Personally, I put much more emphasis on game planning rather than "schemes". Basic philosophy is just that. Basic. It's the ability to recognize and adapt to what your advantages and weaknesses are against the opponent your facing that make the difference.

If Maroney goes for 2500 yds and 30 TD's then I may reconsider my mindset. If not I'll stick with the most basic philosophy: Offensive Linemen need to push Defensive Linemen out of the way of their Running Back.

They don't call it "The Trench" for nothing. I think many here are overthinking the whole scenario of "schemes" and forgetting the brute force side of line play.

 

[BradyManny]

I agree. There's nothing wrong with upgrading. I mean, lets say you have a fine girl. Sure, she looks nice walking up and down the beach in that one piece. There's nothing at all wrong with that one piece. But if you have a nice, skimpy 2 piece laying around, and it's not going to take much work to change, might as well maximize the situation, no?

Hilarity & on point, well done.

 

[sebman2112]

Larry Johnson didnt do **** againsT Colts. Go tell him hes not a good RB. Colts played very good in playoffs with run D. Maroney was playing with a rib and shoulder injury and Dillon without the 50 yard run was nothing spectacular. Dillon has the mentality of an 11 yr vet..why? Because hes been in league11 years and hes learned patience and to accept a 2 yard gain instead of going for a homerun so often

i expect Maroney's average to be 4.9 ypc because
1. We wont face 8 man fronts because Stallworth addition gives us a legit deep threat

2. OL should be more in sync and block better

3. Maroney will he more experienced and understand that 30 yard runs arent gonna be here everytime like in college..take the 2-3 yard gain instead of pushing for more by losing yards or dancing too much trying to find the crease for the long run

4. The scheme is the best in NFL, Atlanta and Denver are 2 notable teams that use it and have had great success in past few years beacuse this is non assignment run blocking..you pick up people to the side your running and drive the defender. It'll work better than our power blocking

Very good points about that playoff game. Also, a lot of the times Maroney got the ball against Indy he was getting stuffed in the backfield before he even took two steps. the O-Line had tremendous breakdowns in run blocking during that game, and it wasn't just when Maroney was in. Dillon didn't really do anything except for that one long run, where he was able to get away from a Colt defender who should have stopped him. Really, people should go look at the games Maroney had in the early season before the injury. He was running fine then.