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Pats salary cap complexity - possible overspending penalty

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by Urgent, Jan 9, 2007.

  1. Urgent

    Urgent In the Starting Line-Up

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    #24 Jersey

    Interesting take on Pats salary cap situation from Reiss:

    Obviously very secretive guys. Funny to hear even Reiss beg for information...

    I personally find it hard to believe the current CBA would include penalties for previously-acceptable cap behavior in the 2004 or 2005 season. (I assume Reiss means 2004 & 2005 as 'previous two seasons', not 2005 and the just-completed 2006 season when he speaks of the Brady and Seymour deals.) Why would teams agree to penalties in the future for actions in the past that were perfectly acceptable at the time? It would be like taking a draft pick away from any team that had two first rounders in a previous draft.

    I wonder what Miguel's take on this is.
     
  2. BradyManny

    BradyManny Pro Bowl Player

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    I agree 100% - it's ludicrous to penalize someone after the fact. That'd be like changing the speed limit on 495 and then going back and giving tickets to everyone who had traveled on it before the switch.
     
  3. fgssand

    fgssand PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #17 Jersey

    Where are the "Kraft is cheap" people now???
     
  4. hwc

    hwc In the Starting Line-Up

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    I think Miquel would say that his excellent spreadsheets can only be as reliable as the information available in the public domain (news reports, NFLPA salary data, etc.).

    I think Miguel would be the first to say that there is a LOT about the Pats cap situation that is impossible to track in real time, especially in areas that don't directly impact listed NFLPA salaries.
     
  5. RayClay

    RayClay Pro Bowl Player

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    #75 Jersey

    Oh c'mon, they're just cheap. And Reiss is a toady.:D
     
  6. PromisedLand

    PromisedLand Virtual Internet Person

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    It is ludicrous, so much so that our founding fathers made it unconstitutional to do the same thing under the law:

    http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html
     
  7. VJCPatriot

    VJCPatriot Pro Bowl Player

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    Unfortunately sports rules work outside normal legal rules. Otherwise the draft would have been considered unconstitutional as well. And as far as I know people are allowed to bargain away their rights, thus the CBA holds as legal since the owners and players agreed to abide by it.
     
  8. marty

    marty In the Starting Line-Up

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    Agreed, however, this may have some teeth and I find it interesting that Reiss having done some research, is still looking for clarification. Perhaps this is just one of the "sticking points" of contentious CBA negotiations of the past year. I'm more than happy to plead ignorance of the CBA and go along with the more simplistic history of spending that the Kraft's have done through the years. That's why I've never been in the "Pats are Cheap" camp, but solidly in the "Pats are Smart" one!
     
  9. spacecrime

    spacecrime Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    He has a radio show on ESPN, and a TV Show called "Down on all Fours with Felger."
     
  10. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    What I believe Mike is talking about is penalizing teams who spent substantial cash over cap. I know that was something the have nots were lobbying for as part of the new CBA and revenue sharing formula. Tightening the loophole that allows teams to fairly circumvent the spirit of the cap if they have the cash flow to pull it off and they don't care about driving up the cost of business for the other 31 of their partners - more than half of whom don't.

    Snyder as the prime example manages to keep his team under the cap while collecting all that name talent by paying huge signing bonuses on backloaded inflated salary deals. This allows him to acquire talent short term and then worry about it later as the cap hits are spread into later years when he figures the cap will again explode or be removed or the world will end for all he knows. And if not he'll just cut all his vets to dump salary and absorb their dead cap while adding new expensive FA's with low early cap hits on their huge bonus fueled deals. Meanwhile he's driving up the market prices for teams with weak revenue streams who don't have state of the art stadiums or billionaire owners who can play that game. They are limited in the number of big bonuses they can risk eating the balance of in two or three years not just because they fear the long term dead cap hits piling up but because they can't keep funding the recurring new huge bonuses themselves. They feel that keeps them on an unlevel playing field regardless of revenue sharing and basic cap funding.

    Polian has played that game in Indy - Manning's contract is like a revolving credit card account you pay (cap hit) the minimum on. He did it believing they would have a new stadium deal by 2008 with revenue to keep rolling it out until after he and Peyton are gone, even though it meant Irsay had to sell his memorabelia collection to fund much of the $34M+ bonus. They couldn't have resigned players like Harrison and Wayne either because of the bonus money involved except that they got a little windfall buyout refund on the old lease of the RCA Dome this year ($30M) that basically covered the bonus money they paid out again this year on Manning, Harrison and Wayne. Cash over cap. Paid now but spread across the books for the next 5 years. Manning's deal paid him $45M over the first 3 seasons though he's only counted about $25M on the cap over that same time period. If he went down they are screwed not just on the field but on the books. Cash over cap is what allows the haves to manipulate cap and what kills teams that have not got a lot of cash (hefty revenue stream or billionaire owner) to work with. If he hadn't gotten his new stadium deal this year, Irsay likely would have had to do what his father did - move the team. He has no other revenue source but the team his father left him.

    The Pats have hinted to the FOB's (friends of Bill) that there is a concern here because of the money being paid out to Brady and Seymour over a two or three year period (2005-2007 said to be $50M) the team is exposing itself to increased risk if one of them were lost and the team had to carry that hit plus the cost of replacing their production things could get uncomfortable here cap wise in a hurry. Which is why they are reluctant to add more double digit bonus contracts on guys like Branch and Samuel - not to mention others will be lining up right behind them. They have the cash to do it, but the business sense not to because they had to dig out of a mess once in this decade and are now committed work with an eye towards long term stability. They don't want to be one of those oops... teams facing $20M+ in dead cap eating away at their ability to field a seriously competitive team in say 2008-2009. Because then you are either forced to go cash over cap if you can afford it or weather a cap constrained season or two while you maneuver your way out of cap purgatory.
     
  11. Jimke

    Jimke In the Starting Line-Up

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    I would think that cash over cap would be reflected in the

    Pats total salary for the 2006-2007 season. Michael Felger

    made the comment a few weeks ago that the Pats total salary for

    2006-2007 was near the the bottom of the NFL . The prior

    couple of years their total salary was one of the highest in the NFL.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2007
  12. Jimke

    Jimke In the Starting Line-Up

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    USA Today has an NFL Salary Database for total salaries

    According to them, the Pats were 5th highest last year, 24th

    highest the previous year, and 9th highest the year before that.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2007
  13. PromisedLand

    PromisedLand Virtual Internet Person

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    Sports rules don't work "outside" normal legal rules, but they are not the same as them either. That's why I emphasized that the constitution bans posto facto LAWS. Private contracts (such as the CBA) can make up any rules they want as long as they don't violate a law.

    But my real point was that it is ludicrous that the CBA works that way. Not even Congress can do what the NFL owners agreed to do to themselves.
     
  14. the taildragger

    the taildragger Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    I've read this thing about ten times and still don't get it.

    are they under the cap this year or not? It's a brand new CBA! The ceiling jumped way up...we may have been over the cap in the past, but we're definitely not paying any penalties for 06.

    It's not that Kraft is cheap...straw argument.

    They spend to the cap EVERY year. I know this is off limits but they had space reserved for Deion. Sorry. Agents get paid to play hardball...I have faith that we can learn to adapt.
     
  15. Va_Pats_Fan

    Va_Pats_Fan Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    #95 Jersey

    OK, this is for any lawyer types out there.

    This is taken from
    http://www.nflpa.org/cba/cba_pdf/Ar...lary,_Salary_Cap,_and_Minimum_Team_Salary.pdf

    I'm not even going to begin to try and decipher....

     
  16. spacecrime

    spacecrime Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    No. Salary plus bonuses paid. Not the deferred bonuses (as in cap) but the actual bonus paid is cash out.

    For example,
    Deion's $13 million dollar bonus may be a cap hit of $2.2 mil a year, but for cash out it is $13 million in 2006.

    Peyton got a $34 mil bonus. He got that when he signed the contract. It may have been cap friendly with only $5 mil counting against teh cap, but it was $34 mil cash. That is cash over cap.
     
  17. Miguel

    Miguel Patriots Salary Cap Guru PatsFans.com Supporter

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    On Page 63 of the amended CBA it says
    "Nothing contained herein shall preclude a Team from having a Team Salary in excess of the Minimum Team Salary, provided it does not exceed the
    Salary Cap." As far as I can tell, there is no mention in the amended CBA what happens to a team if they do exceed the Salary Cap.

    There is stuff in the new CBA that I would have to read several times before I can get a good handle on it like the Adjustment Mechanism (Examples can be found in Appendix P). I have yet to find anything in the CBA that supports a luxury tax concept. I am not saying that Reiss is wrong. I just can't prove or disprove his contention. Please note that the amended CBA as found on the NFLPA site http://www.nflpa.org/CBA/CBA_Complete.aspx seems to be a work in progress so Reiss may have access to more details.

    The Colts had the highest payroll in the NFL this year spending around $111/$112 million on players this year. In 2005/2006 they have spent around $188 million on players. The Pats have spent around $186 million on
    players in 2005/2006. The Falcons had the 2nd highest payroll in 2005 and in 2006 so if this luxury tax concept is true they will be most affected by it.

    What I do not get is
    1.)why have a luxury tax concept at all??
    2.) Why no mention of it until now???
     
  18. upstater1

    upstater1 Pro Bowl Player

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    Well, we're 3 million nder the cap now. It used to be we kept about 1 million in reserve. But as the cap rises, that reserve amount is going to rise too. Can we really complain that the Pats only spent $107 million under the cap this year instead of their allotted $10 million? Come on, how much difference does that $3 million really make?
     
  19. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I think just a glance at that (more induces instant migraine) will suffice to say assuming Belioli has deciphered it and whatever they are doing - that the Felger's of the world don't yet grasp - is the best possible course of action would be a safe bet.

    I think most all teams spend cash over cap from time to time in order to sign a #1 draft pick or big name FA or retain a franchise type player in the process of dealing with the other 80 odd guys. This team has tried to stagger such signings or the bonuses tied to them so as not to be continually cash over cap. Snyder is over all the time because he doesn't care about the league or his partners or any repercussions. Irsay is over because it was the only way he could maintain fannies in seats until a new stadium deal was inked. And as more billionaires become recreational NFL owners they will go over out of pocket at will in hopes of hoisting a Lombardi unless the have nots find a way to hold them accountable.

    If I read this right it's a future cap penalty which would stop Snyder et al while just paying a luxury tax wouldn't phase them any more than it's stopped the Sox and Yankees.
     
  20. Pats726

    Pats726 Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    Miguel..when was this new CBA actuallu completed?? I remember during the summer it was NOT actually finished in words an ddetails so I am wonderfing if this is not a result of that...later understanding of it all...As for having a luxury tax so to speak...seems pretty weird...esp when one has the cap..
     

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