Pats match offer with Sauerbrun

[DW Toys]

Didn't we just give Miller a 100K bonus? Thi seems weird. Maybe we'll trade him to Denver for a 6th or 7th now. That would be funny.

Thats the key Cousin.
We force Slim Sneaky Shanahan to throw a sixth or seventh. We have no intention of keeping Toddley.
DW Toys

 

[WhiZa]

the pats are so good at the salary cap they have money to burn :eat1:

 

[PatsFanSince74]

I don't have a dog in this hunt, but Todd came through with the pressure on in the playoffs. Let them sort it out in camp.

 

[evendelae]

Denver did nothing wrong or illegal, but Walker's original plan was to have a visit with them and then come here for a visit. Well they made sure it stopped there.

Well, obviously Walker's not upset about it, he got a ton of money in Denver. NE should have pulled the tactic Seattle did with Kerney.

Bastards.

 

[spacecrime]

The contract he signed with denver had a no-trade clause in it.

He can still be traded, but Sauerbrun must agree to it.

 

[spacecrime]

There is a no trade clause in the contract. Unless Sauerbrun waives that clause (which he'd probably do to go to Denver), we're stuck with him.

unless we cut him.

 

[SeanBruschi54]

He can still be traded, but Sauerbrun must agree to it.

Of course he'd agree to it.

Isnt that all hes been talking about?

Denver this Denver that. Denver once did this. Denver was my first, i was a virgin. Yada yada yada.

 

[spacecrime]

Lies, damn lies and statistics...Sauerbrun had 10 punts in 2006 and one was returned for a TD. I wouldn't call that overly significant. Miller's 2005 was abnormally good while Sauerbrun's was below his norm. Sauerbrun has the stronger leg (regardless of the stats you cherry-pick to say otherwise).

Over the last two years, Sauerbrun's gross average was significantly less than Millers. Talking all punts over the last two years isn't cherry-picking.

And you will have to 'splain to me how having a punt returned for a TD affected his gross average.

 

[Seymour93]

Of course he'd agree to it.

Isnt that all hes been talking about?

Denver this Denver that. Denver once did this. Denver was my first, i was a virgin. Yada yada yada.

It must be a Dungy-like thing over there. The players want to be buddy buddy with the coach and Shanahan is open to it. Maybe that's why John Lynch choose them over us.

 

[SeanBruschi54]

It must be a Dungy-like thing over there. The players want to be buddy buddy with the coach and Shanahan is open to it. Maybe that's why John Lynch choose them over us.

That and maybe because belichick ripped him apart during the Tennessee game when he told him to kick it out of bounds and he instead kicked it Jones and caused a huge return.

Never saw Belichick rip into a guy like that before.

 

[cstjohn17]

OK, then why do think one the best teams at using cap money in the league would spend over a million a year on a punter (for Sauerbrun or for Miller) when they could get one of the best college punters for next to nothing?

I have no idea, that is why I asked. It seems like overkill for a position that is easy to fill. Any ideas?

 

[moosekill]

I don't really think punter is an easy position to fill. Look who we had kick a couple games for us last year. Beyond that, I think the numbers lie. Sauerbrun kicked the crap out of the ball last year. His only problem was outkicking the coverage a couple of times when he first started. Miller is an ok kicker, Saurbrun is a better kicker. Punting can be greatly affected by where you are kicking from, the weather, your coverage, lots of things. I'd guess the Patriots agree.

 

[Metaphors]

Over the last two years, Sauerbrun's gross average was significantly less than Millers. Talking all punts over the last two years isn't cherry-picking.

Actually, it is the definition of cherry-picking...taking statistics that support your argument while ignoring ones that don't. 2005 was abnormal for both of them (positive for Miller, negative for Sauerbrun). Sauerbrun had only 10 punts in 2006. They have both been in the league for at least a decade and you chose to ignore that history and based on one season (plus 10 punts) and imply that Miller has a stronger leg.

Did Sauerbrun suddenly lose 3-5 yards off of his leg? Did Miller suddenly gain 3+ yards on his leg? Possible, but it is more likely that the stats you chose are an aberration...a view reinforced by Sauerbrun's solid performance in the playoffs.

And you will have to 'splain to me how having a punt returned for a TD affected his gross average.

Never said it did. You included Sauerbrun's 30 yd net in 2006 with no context. I just provided the context (only 10 punts and 1 returned for a TD will kill your net).

History and your eyes will tell you that Sauerbrun has a stronger leg. That doesn't mean he is a better punter...or general special teams contributer. We'll find that out in August, if not sooner. I actually like Miller but his age and health are question marks.

As long as the Pats have the salary cap space, I think it is a good investment to hedge your bets on having the best punter available. This would also include the practice squad punters and possibly a draftee. Gains in field position on punts and kickoffs (including distance and coverage) will enhance the effectiveness of the defense.

 

[37Harrison]

Lies, damn lies and statistics...Sauerbrun had 10 punts in 2006 and one was returned for a TD. I wouldn't call that overly significant. Miller's 2005 was abnormally good while Sauerbrun's was below his norm. Sauerbrun has the stronger leg (regardless of the stats you cherry-pick to say otherwise) but he has questions in the "control" categories like return TDs and Inside-20 vs. touchback.

Maybe BB will give Sauerbrun a chance to get his "control" together in TC. Maybe Miller's injury raises more questions than BB is comfortable with. Whatever the reason, I'm not losing any sleep over this development.

Then I'll give you their totals over their careers so it isn't cherry picking (BTW, I only gave their past 2 years for relevancy reasons, what does it matter how they kicked in the 90's?)

Miller
Avg. punt: 43.1 yards; Net Avg: 35.9
Inside the 20: 247; Yards returned: 3486; TD's: 4

Sauerbrun
Avg. punt: 44 yards (.9 yards better); Net Avg: 36 (.1 yard better)
Inside the 20: 250 (3 better); Yards returned: 4428 (942 yards worse); TD's: 8 (4 worse)

So when you look at this, there is really no difference in leg strength but the end result of their punts are very different and in Millers favor.

Also, I don't buy that he had an off year in Mile High Stadium. Maybe he had an off year because he wasn't on the roids anymore. His stats should've been helped by the fact he was punting in Denver not the other way around.

Oh yeah, I would rather have a punter that has better control over one that can punt less than one lousy yard further. In a game of field position, I'll take accuracy over out kicking our coverage.

 

[Metaphors]

So when you look at this, there is really no difference in leg strength but the end result of their punts are very different and in Millers favor.

I really have no argument with any of the Miller v. Sauerbrun comments except for leg strength. Except for McBrier and Lechler, the entire punting population in 2006 was between 41.3 and 45.7 gross. That's 158 inches between the #3 punter and #30. 36 inches separate #4 and #14. So drawing conclusions from gross avg, especially in a small sample size, seems a little silly.

Punters should be evaluated in how effective they are in changing field position. Given that criteria, I would agree that Miller has generally been effective in his career but not spectacular. However, he was exceptional in 2005. Sauerbrun has more upside but less consistency (touchbacks and big returns).

Trying to convince people that Miller has an equal or bigger leg just distracts from the more important other points being made. Can Miller return to 2005 form despite injuries/age? Can Sauerbrun kick within his coverage scheme to maximize change in field position and minimize big plays?

 

[37Harrison]

I really have no argument with any of the Miller v. Sauerbrun comments except for leg strength. Except for McBrier and Lechler, the entire punting population in 2006 was between 41.3 and 45.7 gross. That's 158 inches between the #3 punter and #30. 36 inches separate #4 and #14. So drawing conclusions from gross avg, especially in a small sample size, seems a little silly.

Punters should be evaluated in how effective they are in changing field position. Given that criteria, I would agree that Miller has generally been effective in his career but not spectacular. However, he was exceptional in 2005. Sauerbrun has more upside but less consistency (touchbacks and big returns).

Trying to convince people that Miller has an equal or bigger leg just distracts from the more important other points being made. Can Miller return to 2005 form despite injuries/age? Can Sauerbrun kick within his coverage scheme to maximize change in field position and minimize big plays?

First off, i didn't use a small sample size, if you look at my second post it was their totals throughout their entire career, hardly a small sample size.

I agree with you that the punting game is about field position and I would say that even if you don't think that Miller has beeen spectacular in that area, Sauerbrun has been worse and his punts have yielded twice as many TD's.

I guess I have a hard time thinking that Sauerbrun has more of an upside. He's been in the league since '95 and in '05 he had an "off" year after it was learned that he was prescribed steriods. Hmmm... I wonder if those roids helped pad his stats throughout the year and I wonder if his use of these banned substances will hinder his future performance. If Sauerbrun hasn't learned how to control his punts or not out kick the coverage by now (it's been ver a decade now that he's been punting in this league) what makes you think he has more upside or that he will all of a sudden get it?

Miller has been more consistent and suffered a shoulder injury (from what has been reported). I can't see any reason why he wouldn't be able to come back from that and kick like he always has seeing as how it didn't effect his leg.

 

[captain stone]

I don't have a dog in this hunt, but Todd came through with the pressure on in the playoffs.

Except for his very last punt. It may not have made a difference, but still...he should have aimed for the coffin corner.

 

[Crowpointer]

My all time favorite Josh Miller punt was the one down the middle to Troy Brown in the AFC Championship game.

 

[Metaphors]

I agree with you that the punting game is about field position and I would say that even if you don't think that Miller has beeen spectacular in that area, Sauerbrun has been worse and his punts have yielded twice as many TD's.

Since I didn't see Sauerbrun much pre-Pats, I can't say what caused those TDs (or Miller's for that matter). Have to assume it was a combination of kicking and coverage not clicking. Unless the coverage unit was incompetent (missed tackles), I'm inclined to blame the punter. That is the main question I have for Sauerbrun...can he mesh with the Pats coverage teams? Not sure.

If Sauerbrun hasn't learned how to control his punts or not out kick the coverage by now (it's been ver a decade now that he's been punting in this league) what makes you think he has more upside or that he will all of a sudden get it?.

The upside is that the boy has a leg. The upside is seeing a punt returner have to retreat and field a punt going backwards. To your question, I think any punter has the potential to click with a coverage team...but I wouldn't assume it will happen until I see it. Miller clearly has the edge here based on effectiveness with the Pats coverage teams. Sauerbrun has to prove himself in this regard or he will be gone. Seems like a good idea to have someone proven in your system compete with someone with superior physical skills but is unproven in your system. Add a rook or two to see if you can catch lightening in a bottle. This is a serious benefit to having salary cap flexibility.

 

[AzPatsFan]

That and maybe because Belichick ripped him apart during the Tennessee game when he told him to kick it out of bounds and he instead kicked it Jones and caused a huge return.

Never saw Belichick rip into a guy like that before.

Yes, But afterward, Belichick apologized to him, and said it was his own error. That was Todd's first game for the Pats, and perhaps no one informed him of what to do, or what the planned coverage was supposed to be.

When is the last time that you heard a Coach apologize publicly to a player?