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Pats loss to Bills: defensive backs discussion

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by jmt57, Sep 25, 2011.

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  1. jmt57

    jmt57 Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Rather than simultaneous discussion in multiple threads on the topic of the Patriots' secondary, how about we consolidate those comments into one thread right here.
  2. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    A) We have four fine corners who have been playing injured: Bodden, McCourty, Dowling and Arrington. They have ZERO help from the safeties.

    B) We have one solid starting strong safety in Chung, plus perhaps backup quality in Barrett and Brown.

    C) We have had 3 special-teamers who seem to be masquarading as safeties: Barrett, Brown and ihedigbo.

    I exagerrate some, since on nfl starting quality player would help enormously. Barrett and Brown might be decent #3/#4 safeties and even potential future solid starters.

    D) We have some additional players on the roster: Adams, Molden and Ventrone
    ============================================

    BOTTOM LINE
    A) By mid-season, the seven man defensive backfield could be much better.

    The corners and Chung should be healthier. Brown and Barrett might improve some. And someone we add might help. After all, we now have Adams, Molden, Ihedigbo and Ventrone. It is possible that we might find a way to use these FOUR roster spots to help the secondary in addition to helping the Special Teams.

    Also, the secondary could get better if and when the front seven is healthier and learns the system better.
  3. RayClay

    RayClay Rookie

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    I tend to agree with this, at least the first part.

    I'd like one of the more knowledgeable and or tape watching posters to comment on the possibility of this safety group getting the job done, or the alternative. I'm all for cutting guys that aren't getting it done/fitting in, but it does seem we've left ourselves short, even if healthy.
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2011
  4. upstater1

    upstater1 Rookie

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    I probably would have reserved judgement if I wasn't at the actual game today where I saw huge huge problems with the safeties that I wouldn't have seen if I had been watching TV. I mean, talk about late breaks. If these guys look like they're not making plays, it's because they are out to lunch.
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2011
  5. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    For me, the sad thing is that we are only ONE player short. If Belichick had started Dowling at safety, I might have thought that we had a solid set of seven defensive backs.
    If Belichick had retained one of the 3 safeties he let go or secured ONE solid safety, we would be fine later in the season when folks learn the system better; and then we have had a solid set of 8 defensive backs.

  6. upstater1

    upstater1 Rookie

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    I spent the entire game at the stadium with my eye on the two safeties (and partly on Spikes). They simply were not breaking on the ball even when it was obvious where the ball was going. I hate to say it but I think they are totally hopeless. What I saw out there was uglier than I ever expected. When Dowling comes back, I want to see him at safety, or at least Arrington there.
  7. Sfpat

    Sfpat Rookie

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    Were any of the safeties who played for the Pats today drafted into the NFL?
  8. RayClay

    RayClay Rookie

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    If they are that bad, why would a rookie and an UDFA cornerback make us whole? Don't get me wrong, I thought they might trade Meri and try Dowling at safety, but that was with the assumption od steady sanders there.

    Not Not doubting the best coach of the last 2,3,4,5,10 years mind you, just wondering what the thought process is here. Does one of these anonymous safeties have possibilities, or is this a revolving door until we fix it?
  9. RayClay

    RayClay Rookie

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    Barret round seven.
  10. Sciz

    Sciz PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Yep. Barrett was a 7th round pick.
  11. ausbacker

    ausbacker Brady > Manning. PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #51 Jersey

    I have one requirement from the corners playing man coverage... actually play man coverage.
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2011
  12. satz

    satz Rookie

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    I cannot believe now that Ras-I is the answer at safety, It took chung a safety 2 yrs to contribute. sounds like now we can start the conversion on Ras-I [I know he played safety in high school] and will our safety ready by say 2012-2013.

    We need a safety and we do not know have one, funny merriweather was making some plays for the bears game . For the crap we heard about this guy and how he will not be missed i am shocked that he is missed in 3 games.

    Devin is the issue his technique is bad and seems like he is playing scared like butler did. if he steps up our defense will change. ofcourse chung helps too.

    We need to help this CB , maybe we need to play more steelers type of defense with carter/anderson our big OLB rush ends .we have been 4-3 and the OL of the other team does have no pressure to pick the mick and OLB rushing. they just lineingup and playing.We need to get anderson/carter to matchup on TE and Rb to block and tackle.scheme thing for sure.
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2011
  13. TBradyOwnsYou

    TBradyOwnsYou Rookie

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    When do they stop being secondary, and start being tertiary?
  14. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ---- JAG ----- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    before the draft I listed CB as our #1 priority. More than 1 member said that was like the 3rd or 4th priority. I stand on my claim ... in a pass happy league we needed a top CB and at least another top secondary player before round 4 in this past draft.

    But look the team is playing an entire different defensive system and i have faith that by mid season they will at least be middle of the pack.
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2011
  15. Observer

    Observer Rookie

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    Unfortunately, without QB pressure, they are primary.
  16. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Belichick agreed with you in that he drafted a corner very high indeed.

    Belichick also agreed with those who thought that OL and RB were huge needs, using considerable resources for those needs also.
    ====================================
    If your point is that you were right in indicating that we needed help at free safety, there were many who agreed with you. The "scandal" is not that Belichick did not draft a free safet in the 3rd as you suggest; rather, it is that Belichick did not address the need in free agency. After all, a team cannot find all the help it needs for the current season in the draft.

  17. zimmy

    zimmy Rookie

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    I don't know what to think about the corners. McCourty is becoming a whipping boy on here but Bodden is just as bad. I don't think I have seen him make a play at all this year. It seems to be a completion or a penalty with him. The corners are obviously not playing very well but on the other hand they are being asked to play one on one man coverage with no safety help and no pressure up top. What exactly are the safeties doing because I haven't seen them up there in run support helping out as our run D gets gashed.

    I think it's alot to ask of our corners for them to play man coverage, no safety help, especially in this league where you can't even put a hand on a receiver. Bill royally screwed up somewhere this summer with his safeties. I don't mind him letting Sanders and Meriweather walk but if you do that, at least have a plan? Was his plan really Sergio Brown et al?

    We all better hope Dowling and Chung can stay healthy all year because if not it could be a long year.
  18. supafly

    supafly PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Bodden has broken up several passes in the first 3 games. While he certainly is not playing great, he is playing acceptable.

    You say that we better hope that Dowling (the rookie) and Chung (the liability in pass coverage) can stay healthy all yr, or else we'll be in trouble. Does that statement really sound 'right' to you? As far as the secondary goes, it sure seems as though we'll be in trouble all yr no matter what.

    There's no pass rush at all. None. There's terrible coverage in the back end. These things are supposed to compliment each other. Until one is significantly improved, the other will remain lousy..and so the cycle will repeat itself. They both need addressed immediately for this team to be able to be a real contender. Yes, we have seen SB contenders, even rare victors without much of a defense. But we've never seen one anything like this either. At least the Colts of 2006 and the Saints of 2009 were acceptable in certain areas on the other side of the ball. This team is bad all over. They can't defend the RB screen, they can't defend the middle of the field, they can't get ANY kind of pass rush or pressure with the front 4, they aren't great against the run (or even good sometimes), and they absolutely suck defending the pass. The CB's are poor, the S play is poor...without Brady leading the offensive battles every week with 31+ pts, this team will not go anywhere unless they make drastic changes on defense. And even IF Brady gets us 31+ pts, we can still lose like we did today in a shootout.

    I am not being extremely negative, and I still believe that this is a 11-5 team somehow. At least a 10-6 team. But I don't believe that the playoff results will be any different, b/c everyone continues to exploit our exact same weaknesses.
  19. Sciz

    Sciz PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    For what it's worth, Bedard (who I think is the best Xs and Os guy in the Boston media) predicts that the Pats will play a lot more zone coverage in the next few games. The Bills had some trouble with it, but they inexplicably went with more man even though it wasn't working late in the game.
  20. cstjohn17

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    The Safeties are getting hammered but Bodden and McCourty were beaten like rented mules. In some cases they wouldn't event get a jam on the WR allowing a clean release and end up chasing the WR down the field. FitzPatrick made some nice throws but because their is no pass rush opposing QBs are able to play with Uber confidence.

    Not pretty.
  21. captain stone

    captain stone Rookie

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    And now we know why the Monte Beisel Non-Tackler of the Game winner lasted that long.

    At least unlike that overpaid trash OchoStinko, Barrett was man enough to face the music
    from the press afterwards.
  22. captain stone

    captain stone Rookie

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    That would be an insult to Tertiary.
  23. nashvillepatsfan

    nashvillepatsfan Rookie

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    The situation with the safeties has me confused. Normally, I always give BB the benefit of the doubt, being that he clearly knows more than me, but not this time. I don't understand how Sanders, and Meriweather were worse than what we have now. Maybe there was something going on behind the scenes, and Bill decided they had to go. If thats the case, well, fine. If not, then why did it take so long to figure out that those two werent going to cut it? Its not like they were new. If Bill had his doubts, why not go after another safety during camp? Were there NO safeties available? Do we not have the pics to trade for a safety? I just don't get it. Chung is clearly our best safety, but after that,,,,,,,you're telling me Sanders, and Meriweather were worse than Brown??

    Im going to stop now, being that im getting annoyed again. :D
  24. sbpatfan

    sbpatfan Banned

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    Is Stephen Hawking avaliable? It seems like Belichick only cares about intelligence at the safety position. He might get burnt in his wheelchair every play, but at least he'll know why. He's probably amazing at reading the QBs' eyes too.
  25. patsfan-1982

    patsfan-1982 Rookie

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    how about Leigh Bodden at FS he's got the size at 6.1 almost 200lbs he can hit he can tackle he is much better at coverage then any outher safety on the roster but he is not a very good man coverage CB so why not let him play center field,

    Kyle Arrington and Ras-I Dowling are alot better then him at CB anyways so when this defense gets everyone back from injury it could look like this

    DE Andre Carter,
    DT Vince Wilfork,
    DT Albert Haynesworth,
    DE Mark Anderson,
    OLB Dane Fletcher,
    MLB Jerod Mayo,
    SS Patrick Chung,
    FS Leigh Bodden,
    CB Devin McCourty,
    CB Kyle Arrington,
    CB Ras-I Dowling,

    i think that line up would do better then they are now
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2011
  26. Sciz

    Sciz PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You don't have to be a genius to play safety for the Pats. You just have to be coachable. Meriweather was not.
  27. supafly

    supafly PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    And I believe you are very right in that regard, Sciz. But the argument could certainly be made that keeping him for one last yr on a cheap rookie pact would have given us a better option in the short term.

    It also would have given the team some kind of veteran presence while they looked to the younger guys and also some other alternatives through the draft in April of 2012, and also free agency.

    I don't even care about Meriweather personally, although those would be the arguments.

    I'm personally more concerned with getting rid of ALL of the other options. They could have kept ONE of either Page, Sanders, or Meriweather. It just seems almost downright stupid to choose over them all at the same time, with no apparent depth or talent level behind them.

    Then again, I'm not the coach either..so I'd assume that he has some kind of plan. I do question what the hell it is though.
  28. supafly

    supafly PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    It's certainly not the worst idea, that's for sure. I would question whether or not Bodden has the overall size and physicality to be able to withstand that kind of increased contact over the course of the season though. That's also the same thing that I'd be worried about with Dowling and even Arrington.

    The other part of your post that I'd also question (and sorry to do so), is whether or not "everyone gets back from injury" as you say. I believe that the team will never be totally healthy, and we probably won't have all of those options that you list all at once, although they do look good on paper.

    If most of them come back, I'd be all for an experiment of Bodden at FS, but those would be the concerns that I'd have. Not sure obviously about what Belichick would be concerned about, but it's not too shabby of an idea.
  29. supafly

    supafly PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    (computerized voice)

    "But...can...he..rush..the...passer????"




    Edit: Sorry, that is probably somewhat borderline ignorant and offensive, and I certainly don't mean to show a lack of class or compassion to those who are stronger than myself in dealing with their obstacles.
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2011
  30. upstater1

    upstater1 Rookie

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    I don't know what Meriwether's deal was but with Sanders it was tackling. Brown and maybe Barrett are simply better tacklers. The game before Sanders was cut, I saw him whiff on tackles and it was just embarrassing.
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