Pats cut Redd, re-sign Love, sign OLB Ninkovich

[Ring 6]

A possible 4-3 would look pretty nice & athletic with:
Seymour-Wilfork-Brace/Wright-Warren
Guyton-Thomas-Mayo
Bodden-Whilite(slot)-Springs/Wheatly/Butler
Meriweather
A couple hogs in the middle in case of a draw, 2 great ends to close the corners
Speed on the edge & two nice cover men, mass & speed in the middle
Speed & quickness in the secondary

at least on paper...

And I like the resigning of Love, even if only for camp, cause just dealing with his athleticism is good for everybody else

Except that all 4 of your DL would be DTs in a 4-3 and Thomas would be a DE.
How does a rookie (or Wright) plus playing Guyton, Thomas and half your DL out of position look better than 9 good players at their right position and Bruschi/Guyton splitting the 50% of the snaps we use 2 ILBs, and an OLB that BB has decided is good enough to play?

 

[DaBruinz]

From PFT:

"Moss reportedly is struggling to adapt to his role in the team's new 3-4 defense, which resulted in a shift from defensive end to outside linebacker."

Please show me where it says that is the reason he's contemplating retirement?

Denver Broncos' Jarvis Moss leaves amid retirement reports - ESPN

KDVR television in Denver first reported that Moss was considering walking away from pro football.

I'll take that over PFT any day.

 

[PushnPencils]

We are a 2gap defense regardless of whether we align in a 34 or 43

If it's 3rd and long and their in 4-3, more than likely they'd switch to playing 1 gap and get upfield rather than a two gap and engage/occupy blockers.

They are all capable of playing 2 gap but they aren't relegated to solely playing that style.

 

[pats1]

Except that all 4 of your DL would be DTs in a 4-3 and Thomas would be a DE.
How does a rookie (or Wright) plus playing Guyton, Thomas and half your DL out of position look better than 9 good players at their right position and Bruschi/Guyton splitting the 50% of the snaps we use 2 ILBs, and an OLB that BB has decided is good enough to play?

But that's not what has been happening in practice so far. Seymour, Green, Smith, Brace, Williams, and Banta-Cain have been DEs. Thomas and Guyton have been OLBs.

 

[DaBruinz]

Except that all 4 of your DL would be DTs in a 4-3 and Thomas would be a DE.
How does a rookie (or Wright) plus playing Guyton, Thomas and half your DL out of position look better than 9 good players at their right position and Bruschi/Guyton splitting the 50% of the snaps we use 2 ILBs, and an OLB that BB has decided is good enough to play?

Andy -
All 4 of the DL wouldn't necessarily be DTs in the 4-3. I had the same misconception. Then it was pointed out to me that there have been plenty of teams that have run a Jumbo 4-3 line where the DEs were in the 290-310 range. Seymour could pull off being a DE. As could Wright. Not sure if Green could.

The problem with going to the 4-3 is that now you are expecting a down-lineman who is used to tying up O-line to be able to drop back into coverage against RBs and TEs. Seymour and Wright MIGHT be able to do it, but I don't know that it would be effective as some people think.

That being said, reports out of Foxboro is that the Pats have been lining up, almost exclusively, in the 4-3. Of course, this might just be to get them familiarized with the 4-3 again as the could be going back to being able to rush from different looks (3-4 or 4-3) and from different positions like they did back in 2003 and 2004.

 

[PushnPencils]

Please show me where it says that is the reason he's contemplating retirement?

Denver Broncos' Jarvis Moss leaves amid retirement reports - ESPN



I'll take that over PFT any day.

You're too easy!

 

[MVPatsfan13]

You dont have to play the DEs as DTs and the OLBs as DEs for the purpose of pass rush. And it depends on how they are judged to be out of position, Wight has played every single spot in both 3-4 & 4-3, guyton & thomas have played both LB spots.
I was just thinking that would still be stout against the run, so if a team like the giants came out in the spread, but still had jacobs in and ran it, we'd be ok. It was just a fantasy football moment, cause some of those DL would be sucking air on the sidelines anyways when we change to 4-3.
Im not an advocate of basing our D on the 4-3 either, if thats the impression you got

damn my slow internet connection...

 

[Ring 6]

If it's 3rd and long and their in 4-3, more than likely they'd switch to playing 1 gap and get upfield rather than a two gap and engage/occupy blockers.

They are all capable of playing 2 gap but they aren't relegated to solely playing that style.

3rd and long isnt 4-3, its nickel or probably dime.
If you are talking about a 3rd down package, A) that is different and you are way off because you only have 4 DBs (and your DL is screwed up for 3rd down and b) one gap/2 gap is base defense, not sub packages.

Please clarify what you are talking about.

 

[tanked_as_usual]

Except that all 4 of your DL would be DTs in a 4-3 and Thomas would be a DE.
How does a rookie (or Wright) plus playing Guyton, Thomas and half your DL out of position look better than 9 good players at their right position and Bruschi/Guyton splitting the 50% of the snaps we use 2 ILBs, and an OLB that BB has decided is good enough to play?

one of the interesting aspects of this issue is the pats schedule.......only 5 regular season games against teams that you will expect to be in the top half of the NFL when it comes to passing (colts, saints, texans, dolphins(x2)) based on last year's numbers........buffalo's passing game will improve, but that is based on WR's and not something that the front 7 would be overly concerned about.....the colts and the saints could be tough, but I am sure the pats can game plan for those games with who they have

most of the teams the pats are playing are projecting to be really run-heavy anyway

 

[Ring 6]

Andy -
All 4 of the DL wouldn't necessarily be DTs in the 4-3. I had the same misconception. Then it was pointed out to me that there have been plenty of teams that have run a Jumbo 4-3 line where the DEs were in the 290-310 range. Seymour could pull off being a DE. As could Wright. Not sure if Green could.

The problem with going to the 4-3 is that now you are expecting a down-lineman who is used to tying up O-line to be able to drop back into coverage against RBs and TEs. Seymour and Wright MIGHT be able to do it, but I don't know that it would be effective as some people think.

That being said, reports out of Foxboro is that the Pats have been lining up, almost exclusively, in the 4-3. Of course, this might just be to get them familiarized with the 4-3 again as the could be going back to being able to rush from different looks (3-4 or 4-3) and from different positions like they did back in 2003 and 2004.

What????????????
I suppose you COULD play Seymour at 4-3 DE, maybe Warren also, but why would you? That is not thier position and their skillset.
I don't know who 'pointed out to you' that plenty of teams have 300lb 4-3 DEs, but I see, umm, none. Please inform me which teams run a base 43 with 300lb DEs.

I have no clue what you are talking about with DL in coverage. That simply doesnt happen, unless in a zone blitz once in while, which we rarely if ever use. (By the way whether a 34 or 43 our DL still need to play 2 gapn technique) Please explain to me why you think 43 DL have pass coverage responsibliities?

I have not seen reports that we are exclusively running 43, but I hear such talk every year.
I see about a 0.0001% chance of the Patriots becoming a 43 base team, because the roster was built based upon a 34.

 

[Ring 6]

But that's not what has been happening in practice so far. Seymour, Green, Smith, Brace, Williams, and Banta-Cain have been DEs. Thomas and Guyton have been OLBs.

Didnt you say you are basing that on 2 practices?

 

[Ring 6]

one of the interesting aspects of this issue is the pats schedule.......only 5 regular season games against teams that you will expect to be in the top half of the NFL when it comes to passing (colts, saints, texans, dolphins(x2)) based on last year's numbers........buffalo's passing game will improve, but that is based on WR's and not something that the front 7 would be overly concerned about.....the colts and the saints could be tough, but I am sure the pats can game plan for those games with who they have

most of the teams the pats are playing are projecting to be really run-heavy anyway

Traditionally we have defended the run better from the 34 than the 43, for what its worth.

 

[tanked_as_usual]

I would not be suprised to see guyton take reps outside.........

thomas,mayo,bruschi/lenon,guyton/crable/woods

 

[PushnPencils]

3rd and long isnt 4-3, its nickel or probably dime.
If you are talking about a 3rd down package, A) that is different and you are way off because you only have 4 DBs (and your DL is screwed up for 3rd down and b) one gap/2 gap is base defense, not sub packages.

Please clarify what you are talking about.

You're right in nickel or dime situations it's not a 4-3 but you do have 4 down linemen whose job is to put pressure on the QB.

My point is that with the right personnel, a 4-3 scheme can generate as much pressure any 3-4 zone blitz scheme if you have the right personnel. The Giants and Eagles for example do it very successfully.

 

[Ring 6]

I would not be suprised to see guyton take reps outside.........

thomas,mayo,bruschi/lenon,guyton/crable/woods

The fact that he struggled there last year, and that he is expected to play a bigger role inside this year tells me it is likely they will want him focussed on learning the inside position. I guess partly it depends on how well he has learned his job inside and why he struggled outside.

 

[PushnPencils]

I would not be suprised to see guyton take reps outside.........

thomas,mayo,bruschi/lenon,guyton/crable/woods

Hey tanked! Long time no see. Given up on antagonizing dopes on ESPN!

 

[tanked_as_usual]

Traditionally we have defended the run better from the 34 than the 43, for what its worth.

what do you mean by 'traditionally' ?

there are instances when the pats have gone to the 4-3 and it has shut the entire opposing offense down.........

now I am not a proponent of doing so, but the positional quality of the current roster makes it easy for one to believe that there will be more 4-3 this year......

I mean if you are playing the jets, or the ravens, or the falcons, their games will all be predicated on bringing as many people into the box as possible and then taking some chances to the WR's.......

my issue with this scenario is that if you do go 4-3, seymour is the guy you want inside, not on end...........he's big and quick enough to make OG's miss and can simply crumple C's up into a ball

I still believe the 3-4 is the way they are going, but the situation does make interesting fodder

 

[Ring 6]

You're right in nickel or dime situations it's not a 4-3 but you do have 4 down linemen whose job is to put pressure on the QB.

My point is that with the right personnel, a 4-3 scheme can generate as much pressure any 3-4 zone blitz scheme if you have the right personnel. The Giants and Eagles for example do it very successfully.

OK. But we dont zone blitz either.

Our 2 gap philosophy BY NATURE limits our pass rush from the base D. That is because the 2gap philopsophy prioritizes run defense over pass rush. The DL must engage the blocker, as opposed to a one gap where they try to penetrate through the gap.
Oterwise the difference is that one of our LBs (usually an OLB) is the 4th designated rusher out of the base. If he reads pass, he rushes. That is NOT a blitz, it is the 4th rusher rushing. In that regard, it is the same as a 43.
To say that some teams get a pass rush out of a 43 is like saying some teams are good at man to man coverage.
Of course you can get a pass rush out of 43 if you are good at rushing the passer, just as you can from a 34.

I do not see how our personell is suited to a 43.

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

I can't believe you guys are freaking out about Vince Redd. The guy was a long shot at best at even playing OLB. Here's how it's going down, either Woods already won the job or the Pats are trading for someone else. Stop freaking out, the Pats aren't any worse than they were at LB.

 

[tanked_as_usual]

Hey tanked! Long time no see. Given up on antagonizing dopes on ESPN!

I haven't been there for a long time............troll city with little value

I do get the temptation to go back there to laugh at jets fans