Pats acquire TE Michael Matthews from Giants

[thewaylifeshouldbe]

I don't disagree with you. IMO, Thomas has the potential to be the more complete TE of the 2. But he hasn't shown it in the 3 years he was here and I absolutely agree that he's behind Watson and Baker. Matthews is more along the lines of what this team needs right now. If Watson was to go down for the year, that may change though. The other thing I'm trying to point out is if Matthews was this incredible blocking TE, I'm sure the Giants would have found a spot for him instead of Darcy Johnson and a 7th round pick (presumably what they got from the Pats).

I think the Giants went with Darcy for his catching skills. With the loss of Buress, and Moss only looking good against Chung, the Giants have some receiver issues this year.

They just paid Eli a ton of dough.....too much to have him keep handing it off.

Matthews is no Daniel Graham, but he is not the typical TE you see these days. Most of the TE's are field stretchers now with some mediocre blocking skills. This kid Matthews has made it in the NFL solely on his blocking ability and work ethic.

I also think that whatever he has been will get better. I have faith that BB will coach this guy up to another level. Remember, this is only his third year.

 

[BradyFTW!]

That right there is just sour grapes. It's not like Gaffney didn't drop that wide open TD pass in that game. Or the 3rd and almost 20 against the Jets when the LBs forgot to cover the TE and Merriweather couldn't tackle him. No, those plays had nothing to do with us making it to the playoffs.

While I agree with the general sentiment of what you said, there *is* a difference between making a mistake in-game and committing a stupid penalty after the whistle. The former case is a mistake, and mistakes happen. The latter case is just inexplicable, although I heard that after the fact he claimed that he just didn't hear the whistle. If that's the case, then it's simply a mistake.

 

[Deus Irae]

While I agree with the general sentiment of what you said, there *is* a difference between making a mistake in-game and committing a stupid penalty after the whistle. The former case is a mistake, and mistakes happen. The latter case is just inexplicable, although I heard that after the fact he claimed that he just didn't hear the whistle. If that's the case, then it's simply a mistake.

Sadly, it was also probably the best block of his entire Patriots tenure.

 

[bucky]

Do yu dispute that play cost us the game?
That is Dave Thomas' legacy here, because the 21 passes he caught didn't exactly lead us to the promised land.
Sour grapes? The guy committed a stupid game costing penalty, and it is the most memorable moment of his Patriot career.
Please detail all the positives he brought so I can go to sleep tonight karmatically even toward his contributions to the team.

Yes, it was one of the plays that cost us the game. And there weren't a lot of great David Thomas moments. I'm not saying he's Bruschi, or anything like that. I'm just saying you sound like sour grapes. Go back and read your post. You're blaming the guy for the team not making the playoffs and calling it the second most harmful penalty in team history (I assume you're talking about the Assante PI call in Denver as the worst and bogus one).

 

[Lampshade]

sorry to pile on, but on the Giants' boards i've glanced through, they've had positive things to say about the guy. it's just that they have a lot of depth on the team with 3 other quality TE's

They do seem sad to see him go. Many discussions as of this time last week had him pegged as the #2 TE.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Yes, it was one of the plays that cost us the game. And there weren't a lot of great David Thomas moments. I'm not saying he's Bruschi, or anything like that. I'm just saying you sound like sour grapes. Go back and read your post. You're blaming the guy for the team not making the playoffs and calling it the second most harmful penalty in team history (I assume you're talking about the Assante PI call in Denver as the worst and bogus one).

Gotta be Sugar Bear's roughing the passer, although he gets a pass because that was a bull**** call.

 

[bucky]

Gotta be Sugar Bear's roughing the passer, although he gets a pass because that was a bull**** call.

Oh yeah. Sorry, I was a kid living in a different country at the time. But now that you mentioned it, I know what you're talking about. So I just came up with the Assante penalty that was more harmful than the Thomas hit.

 

[patfanken]

The more I think about it, the more I like this trade. First I'd like to clear up some misconceptions.

Thomas HAD improved his blocking skills immensely... but STILL was only a serviceable blocker. He was willing. He got into good positions (angles) when blocking. However he wasn't a physical blocker. He more screened his man, as opposed to blowing him out. Matthews will do this better.

As to his receiving, IMHO he was the most natural receiver among the TEs. The most comfortable catching the ball. He actually had 2 critical plays during his career. The one in Indy has be well documented, however we forget that game winning TD his rookie year, which was a difficult catch IIRC.

The real issue in trading Thomas was not about his effort or abilities, but how his skill set fit within THIS offense. Quite frankly THIS offense doesn't really NEED a receiving type TE, like Gonzales, Keller, Clark, etc. When is the TE EVER the first look. In THIS offense the WRs and RBs are the ball catchers. You can bring in 3 of the top receiving TEs in the league, and they still won't catch 50 balls....COMBINED...in... THIS...offense.

Also, Ben Watson was the principal blocker from the Hback and TE position last season, for the best rushing Pats offense in 2 decades. He's not just adequate...he's good. Maybe not Graham good, but better than most fans give him credit for....and don't forget....when the Pats did use an offense that used the TE as a principal receiver, Watson caught 50 balls in 13 games.

And did I mention that I really like Baker. . It took a while, but BB put together the RIGHT group of TEs for this team, not necessarily the best group.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Oh yeah. Sorry, I was a kid living in a different country at the time. But now that you mentioned it, I know what you're talking about. So I just came up with the Assante penalty that was more harmful than the Thomas hit.

the PI on Hobbs that was so bad that the league later apologized for it was pretty awful too, hahaha. Man, there have been some awful penalties wrongly called against us. Say what you want about the tuck rule, but that play was a correct interpretation of the rules, even if it was a pretty dumb rule.

 

[Ring 6]

Yes, it was one of the plays that cost us the game. And there weren't a lot of great David Thomas moments. I'm not saying he's Bruschi, or anything like that. I'm just saying you sound like sour grapes. Go back and read your post. You're blaming the guy for the team not making the playoffs and calling it the second most harmful penalty in team history (I assume you're talking about the Assante PI call in Denver as the worst and bogus one).

I think if you reread you will see that all of my reasoning was based on the player and the situation and I ended it by throwing in the criticism about costing us that game, because it made me feel better.
It really doesnt affect my analysis, but I liked the feeling of taking the parting shot as well.
No I'm talking about the Hamilton phantom roughing the QB in 76

 

[Deus Irae]

The more I think about it, the more I like this trade. First I'd like to clear up some misconceptions.

Thomas HAD improved his blocking skills immensely... but STILL was only a serviceable blocker. He was willing. He got into good positions (angles) when blocking. However he wasn't a physical blocker. He more screened his man, as opposed to blowing him out. Matthews will do this better.

As to his receiving, IMHO he was the most natural receiver among the TEs. The most comfortable catching the ball. He actually had 2 critical plays during his career. The one in Indy has be well documented, however we forget that game winning TD his rookie year, which was a difficult catch IIRC.

The real issue in trading Thomas was not about his effort or abilities, but how his skill set fit within THIS offense. Quite frankly THIS offense doesn't really NEED a receiving type TE, like Gonzales, Keller, Clark, etc. When is the TE EVER the first look. In THIS offense the WRs and RBs are the ball catchers. You can bring in 3 of the top receiving TEs in the league, and they still won't catch 50 balls....COMBINED...in... THIS...offense.

Also, Ben Watson was the principal blocker from the Hback and TE position last season, for the best rushing Pats offense in 2 decades. He's not just adequate...he's good. Maybe not Graham good, but better than most fans give him credit for....and don't forget....when the Pats did use an offense that used the TE as a principal receiver, Watson caught 50 balls in 13 games.

And did I mention that I really like Baker. . It took a while, but BB put together the RIGHT group of TEs for this team, not necessarily the best group.

No offense Ken, but trading for the recently departed Mr. Smith undercuts the point about receiving tight ends.

 

[Ring 6]

No offense Ken, but trading for the recently departed Mr. Smith undercuts the point about receiving tight ends.

Smith was just competing for a job. I wouldnt call him a receiver in the category of Watson or Baker, and maybe not even Thomas.
He was competition and he wasnt up to it. I dont think you can read too much into that.

 

[T-cat]

ok think about it we have a fast TE who can be decent catching and ok blocking (Watson) then we have a perfectly balanced TE (baker) and a huge power TE (Mathews) so we have a tight end for every situation and imagine if this Mathews guy caught a ball and was running straight towords a corner...id have to look away

 

[Deus Irae]

Smith was just competing for a job. I wouldnt call him a receiver in the category of Watson or Baker, and maybe not even Thomas.
He was competition and he wasnt up to it. I dont think you can read too much into that.

Smith couldn't spell "block", as we were all so fortunate to see in vivid clarity during the exhibition season. He was brought in because he was a receiving tight end, and the Patriots gave up a 5th for him.

I'm not calling Ken out for a beating or anything. I'm just noting that such a trade undercuts his assertion. Backing up his assertion would be the fact that the 2 tight ends that were kept have been pummeled by the Patriots' and Jets' fanbases for their allegedly poor hands, and the trading for a player who has barely made more catches in the NFL than my grandmother.

 

[patriot lifer]

Smith couldn't spell "block", as we were all so fortunate to see in vivid clarity during the exhibition season. He was brought in because he was a receiving tight end, and the Patriots gave up a 5th for him.

:deadhorse:

 

[BradyFTW!]

Smith couldn't spell "block", as we were all so fortunate to see in vivid clarity during the exhibition season. He was brought in because he was a receiving tight end, and the Patriots gave up a 5th for him.

I'm not calling Ken out for a beating or anything. I'm just noting that such a trade undercuts his assertion. Backing up his assertion would be the fact that the 2 tight ends that were kept have been pummeled by the Patriots' and Jets' fanbases for their allegedly poor hands, and the trading for a player who has barely made more catches in the NFL than my grandmother.

Either that or Smith was brought in to provide some competition for Watson (and maybe Baker), while Thomas was given the chance to win the 'blocking TE' position, with BB understanding that, if he failed, a TE who could block would be readily available.

Smith wasn't necessarily there to compete for the spot that ended up going to Matthews.

 

[Deus Irae]

Either that or Smith was brought in to provide some competition for Watson (and maybe Baker), while Thomas was given the chance to win the 'blocking TE' position, with BB understanding that, if he failed, a TE who could block would be readily available.

Smith wasn't necessarily there to compete for the spot that ended up going to Matthews.

I agree, but that really wasn't my point about Smith. I'm just noting that bringing in a receiving tight end undercuts an argument that says

Quite frankly THIS offense doesn't really NEED a receiving type TE, like Gonzales, Keller, Clark, etc.

or at least begs the question of why BB would bring in just such a receiving type TE if it wasn't needed. Now, for a tangent:

I still want Graham back. IMO, he would have helped bring home 19-0, he's the best damned blocking tight end this team's seen in the BB era, and his ability to absolutely crush the opponents would make this a much more physical offensive line. Of all the players that the Patriots have 'allowed' to go elsewhere, his loss annoys me the most.

/end soapbox

 

[BradyFTW!]

I still want Graham back. IMO, he would have helped bring home 19-0, he's the best damned blocking tight end this team's seen in the BB era, and his ability to absolutely crush the opponents would make this a much more physical offensive line. Of all the players that the Patriots have 'allowed' to go elsewhere, his loss annoys me the most.

/end soapbox

I agree on that one. I feel similarly about Law in terms of 'damn, we still haven't replaced that', but whereas we let Law walk because he was coming off of a foot injury and about to decline rapidly, we let Graham walk in the beginning of the prime of his career. Admittedly, Denver overpaid for him, but just knowing that we could have had him in 2007 instead of Kyle Brady is kinda gutwrenching.

 

[patfanken]

No offense Ken, but trading for the recently departed Mr. Smith undercuts the point about receiving tight ends.

None taken. We know BB isn't enslaved to any one offense, and will build it around the types of players that are available. Perhaps he brought Smith in with the idea that there might be a place for a true receiving TE in the Pats offense, and since Thomas was still kind of mystery, he'd watch and see how things unfolded.

However as training camp went on either Smith/Thomas didn't elevate their games enough to make BB want to take away throws from his WRs and RBs to focus on the TE any more than they did in 07, or the WRs/RBs looked so good that he didn't see the need to have a "receiving" TE. Mostly likely it was a little of both. It seemed to me that they want Maroney more involve in the passing game this year...thus even FEWER opportunities for the TEs. Besides in Watson and Baker, he had 2 guys who can both block and are decent receivers. Guys who can help on the GL and as a change of pace.

I don't know what BB had in mind when he got Smith, but in the end he decided to go with a TE corp that will NOT feature the TE as a receiver.

 

[patchick]

Even if you think that Thomas is better as an individual player, he offers nothing that we don't already have several times over, whereas Matthews does what he does better than anyone else on the roster.

We do not need the best 53 players, but the 53 that play best together.
We have 2 versatile TEs who are better receievers than blockers.
A versatile TE who is a complete player but not as good as those 2, is worth a lot less to us than an excellent blocker with stone hands who will never be a complete player.

To me, this is what it's all about. The question isn't which #3 tight end is the better player, it's which one makes for a better roster. Thomas was playing more of a blocking role with some FB responsibilities during camp, and Matthews is a better choice for that particular role. (At 270 lbs., the guy's a load.) They also control his rights for an extra year, which is a nice bonus.