Patriots without Pioli

[IllegalContact]

You can easily refute that, because Willis isnt playing in a 2gap defense.

You'd have a better argument saying the SF is better with Willis than they would be with Mayo,only because Willis' ability in THAT system sets the bar so high, you have a good chance of being correct no matter how good Mayo would be in it.
Willis would not make anywhere near the number of plays in our defense because he would have responsibilties other than 'run to the ball while we keep blockers off of you'

not sure what difference 1 gap and 2 gap make in terms of coverage....maybe you can explain that...the niners play a 3-4, so he has to deal with OGs also.

I think the biggest improvement would be in defending the pass

 

[Ring 6]

not sure what difference 1 gap and 2 gap make in terms of coverage....maybe you can explain that...the niners play a 3-4, so he has to deal with OGs also.

I think the biggest improvement would be in defending the pass

Willis strength is not pass defense.

The difference between 1 gap and 2 gap is night and day for an ILB.
I explained it above, not really interested in going over it all again, maybe you can read what I already wrote.

 

[IllegalContact]

Willis strength is not pass defense.

The difference between 1 gap and 2 gap is night and day for an ILB.
I explained it above, not really interested in going over it all again, maybe you can read what I already wrote.

he is substantially better at it than mayo

and outside of opinion, you didn't provide much of an explanation

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

I can't believe im still reading unenlightened stuff like this, And when i say unenlightened i'm being kind. Mayo was seriously injured last year, he came back much earlier than anyone could have expected.

I understand he was injured and he was forced back into the lineup. That's how bad the Pats were at LB last season. Even a moron can figure out that the Pats are weak at LB. The Pats drafted Spikes to help in run support so Mayo can hopefully make a play or two.

I don't care if hes not willis hes close enough.

That's a good one. You obviously don't watch Willis play. Mayo isn't in Willis's league. In fact, Willis makes every other LB in the NFL look average.

Willis strength is not pass defense.

Unlike Mayo, Willis makes plays. When he intercepts the ball, it goes for six or he at least does some damage. He also forces fumbles, deflects passes and gets sacks. So if you don't think he is very good in coverage, Mayo is worthless.

It shouldn't even be a debate who the best ILB is in the NFL.

 

[Ring 6]

I understand he was injured and he was forced back into the lineup. That's how bad the Pats were at LB last season. Even a moron can figure out that the Pats are weak at LB. The Pats drafted Spikes to help in run support so Mayo can hopefully make a play or two.

That's a good one. You obviously don't watch Willis play. Mayo isn't in Willis's league. In fact, Willis makes every other LB in the NFL look average.

Unlike Mayo, Willis makes plays. When he intercepts the ball, it goes for six or he at least does some damage. He also forces fumbles, deflects passes and gets sacks. So if you don't think he is very good in coverage, Mayo is worthless.

It shouldn't even be a debate who the best ILB is in the NFL.

In his first 2 seasons Willis had a total of 1 int, 3 forced fumbles. Mayo had 0 ints and 2 forced fumbles.
I dont think 1 int and 1 forced fumble every 2 years is a difference to be that concerned with.

 

[Ring 6]

he is substantially better at it than mayo

and outside of opinion, you didn't provide much of an explanation

The explanation of the difference between playing a position where your job is to chase the ballcarrier, and one where you are responsible for 2 gaps first wasnt opinion.

 

[IllegalContact]

The explanation of the difference between playing a position where your job is to chase the ballcarrier, and one where you are responsible for 2 gaps first wasnt opinion.

okay......so mayo's job is not to chase the ball carrier? does hitting OG's count as tackles?

you're not make much sense in your comparison.

 

[Ring 6]

okay......so mayo's job is not to chase the ball carrier? does hitting OG's count as tackles?

you're not make much sense in your comparison.

I am explaining what there job is in the defense they play in.
In the Patriot defense the front 7s first responsibility is to cover the 2gap area they are responsible for. THEN they can chase. So if Mayo is playing LILB and the play starts to the defensive right, his job is to STEP UP INTO HIS AREA and be responsible for cutback or counter before leaving that are.
Willis' responsiblity is to go whereever he thinks the ball is going. Further OTHER PLAYERS have responsiblities which allow Willis to be free to run.

Heres another example.
A DE in a 2gap system must control the T and be able to play both sides of him to play2 gap run D. Only after he knows it is a pass is he free to rush the QB. Therefore his first step is always INTO the T.
A DE in a one gap's job is to RUN PAST the T no matter what the play is, either inside or outside. So it is a pass, his first step already has been to avoid the blocker.
Are you going to tell me you can look at sack stats and compare these 2 players as if they have equal duties and equal opportunity to get sacks?

Its the same with Mayo anmd Willis. Mayo has an area to defend from C to T, and has to secure that area first. Willis runs to the ball.

As far your comment about taking on Gs counting as tackles, I'm not quite sure what to say about that, apparently you think NFL defense is about 11 players watching the ball and chasing it like 4 years olds playing soccer.

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

In his first 2 seasons Willis had a total of 1 int, 3 forced fumbles. Mayo had 0 ints and 2 forced fumbles.
I dont think 1 int and 1 forced fumble every 2 years is a difference to be that concerned with.

Fair enough. Although they are not sure things, I expect Mayo to breakout this season with the additions of Spikes and McKenzie.

 

[Ring 6]

Fair enough. Although they are not sure things, I expect Mayo to breakout this season with the additions of Spikes and McKenzie.

I think Mayo has been fine.
I think your point about his lack of big plays is valid, although as Willis shows its not necessarily a position where big plays are available.
I think expecting any 2gap LB to be all over the field making plays a 1 gap LB with the freedom to roam makes it unreasonable.
For example, we have had ILBs in the past who flew out to chase plays run away. The reality is that unless something is severely screwed up they arent going to have a lot of impact on those plays. They make the 'statsheet' tackle, which is jumping on the pile or getting an assist by diviing into a tackle already made, but when the opponent sees it and cuts back we are gashed.
When our D is working right we are consistent, everyone stays home and does their job and the cutback lanes are filled. Invariably every time we struggle against the run, its the cutback lanes that kill us.
I don't think its right to compare the tackles of a guy who is responsible for gaps along with 6 other players to a guy who has 6 other players handling those duties so he has the freedom to run to the ball unfettered.

I went to HS with a guy who was a DT, and was considered a dominant guy, but the joke was that he just fell on the pile and got credit for the tackle.
He went to college and played in a system (similar to a 2gap) where the DTs were taught to engage the OL and 'block for the LBs'. He quit after 3 weeks.

 

[BillBelichickFan79]

1 gap > 2 gap

Without Pioli > With Pioli

 

[ahmed]

This thread should be linked to a dictionary's definition of 'Counting your chickens before they hatch.' Sure, the last couple drafts have been promising... but for now, promising is all they are.

One could also say... our last two years without Pioli have been our worst two years in the last decade on the field and what happens on the field is all that matters...

 

[Rob0729]

1 gap > 2 gap

Without Pioli > With Pioli

Why is one gap better than two gap? The best defense in Patriots' history was a two gap.

As for with Pioli or without Pioli, we need to wait a bit to make a judge.

 

[Rob0729]

This thread should be linked to a dictionary's definition of 'Counting your chickens before they hatch.' Sure, the last couple drafts have been promising... but for now, promising is all they are.

One could also say... our last two years without Pioli have been our worst two years in the last decade on the field and what happens on the field is all that matters...

First of all, Pioli left after the 2008 season. So the Pats have only played one season without Pioli.

Second of all, you can make a strong argument that both 2000 (there is no question) and 2002 were worse seasons than either 2008 or 2009.

Third, the Pats went 11-5 in 2008 without Brady. I consider that season a success. If there wasn't a fluke that happens every 20 years or so, they would have made the playoffs and possibly done damage.

Fourth, last year was a transition year on defense. Sometimes you gotta take a step back before you take a step forward. The jury is out on that one, but the Pats may end up being a better team for the next 4-5 years for taking that step back this past season.

 

[ahmed]

First of all, Pioli left after the 2008 season. So the Pats have only played one season without Pioli.

Second of all, you can make a strong argument that both 2000 (there is no question) and 2002 were worse seasons than either 2008 or 2009.

Third, the Pats went 11-5 in 2008 without Brady. I consider that season a success. If there wasn't a fluke that happens every 20 years or so, they would have made the playoffs and possibly done damage.

Fourth, last year was a transition year on defense. Sometimes you gotta take a step back before you take a step forward. The jury is out on that one, but the Pats may end up being a better team for the next 4-5 years for taking that step back this past season.

The second part of my post was tongue in cheek... as in you can spin things many different ways and things don't happen in a vacuum.

I just think people are trying, whether they mean to or not, to diminish his role with us… almost to make themselves feel better about him leaving… Something that is also done with a lot of our former players and it rubs me the wrong way.

And just like you gave a bunch of reasons or excuses for the last 2 seasons… a bunch of excuses and reasons can be used for the last few drafts as well or the direction of a team as a whole

 

[Ring 6]

The second part of my post was tongue in cheek... as in you can spin things many different ways and things don't happen in a vacuum.

I just think people are trying, whether they mean to or not, to diminish his role with us… almost to make themselves feel better about him leaving… Something that is also done with a lot of our former players and it rubs me the wrong way.

And just like you gave a bunch of reasons or excuses for the last 2 seasons… a bunch of excuses and reasons can be used for the last few drafts as well or the direction of a team as a whole

I don't think anyone is revising their assessment of Pioli since he left.
I think there are 2 schools of thought.
One is that Belichick taught Pioli everything he knows and Pioli was his employee carrying out his instruction.
The other is that Pioli assumed increasing independence and authority.

I think the board and Patfandom was split on that and still is.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Third, the Pats went 11-5 in 2008 without Brady. I consider that season a success. If there wasn't a fluke that happens every 20 years or so, they would have made the playoffs and possibly done damage.

That "fluke," of course being the way the NFL schedule works combined with the awe-inspiring suck that is the AFC West.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

I don't think anyone is revising their assessment of Pioli since he left.
I think there are 2 schools of thought.
One is that Belichick taught Pioli everything he knows and Pioli was his employee carrying out his instruction.
The other is that Pioli assumed increasing independence and authority.

I think the board and Patfandom was split on that and still is.

i do think the pioli got more and more authority. Belichick simply cannot do everything...he's got to rely on others. I think one of the more underrated things about BB is that he gives delegates to those around him. We saw that with Josh McDaniels, Crennel and Weis.

 

[Ring 6]

i do think the pioli got more and more authority. Belichick simply cannot do everything...he's got to rely on others. I think one of the more underrated things about BB is that he gives delegates to those around him. We saw that with Josh McDaniels, Crennel and Weis.

Well, WE rely have no clue what the boss/employee relationship between BB and any of them was. We werent there to see it, so can only make an uneducated guess.
As far as 'doing everything' there is very little difference in amount of time it takes to cede totally resonsbility in an area to an assistant, and sit in meetings nodding your head while they report to you, and laying out strict parameters and expectations and consistently following up on them and giving feedback.
BBs workload is negligibly affected by either difference/

 

[Ring 6]

i do think the pioli got more and more authority. Belichick simply cannot do everything...he's got to rely on others. I think one of the more underrated things about BB is that he gives delegates to those around him. We saw that with Josh McDaniels, Crennel and Weis.

And I want to clarify. Of course he delegates every boss delegates otherwise they would be the only employee.
Their is a big difference though in delegating a job and delegating HOW TO DO a job. And again, the difference in time constraint is minor.