Patriots sue StubHub

[pats1]

http://www.profootballtalk.com/rumormill.htm

POSTED 8:37 a.m., November 23, 2006​

PATS SUE STUBHUB

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In a stunning move that could do more harm to the NFL than good, the New England Patriots have sued online ticket reseller StubHub for encouraging violation of the Massachusetts antiscalping laws.

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The landmark suit also names 52 individuals who re-sold Patriots tickets via the StubHub service, and the Patriots seek as damages three times the revenue StubHub and the other defendants earned through the online sales of tickets to New England games, along with an injunction against further resale of Patriots tickets by StubHub.

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The problem is that more than a few NFL teams currently are in bed with companies like StubHub, engaging in "partnerships" that indirectly funnel money realized via ticket scalping to owners. A high-level executive with one team defended the practice in a conversation with us several months ago, explaining that for fans of modest income the ability of a season-ticket holder to sell seats at a markup to one game per year makes the total package of tickets affordable -- and it helps other fans willing and able to pay fair market value obtain access to NFL games.

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The practical consequence of the Patriots' lawsuit could be the disruption (if not the evaporation) of these partnerships, since the league will likely be forced to conjure a consistent policy for all teams as to whether business arrangements with scalpers in cubicles is desirable or permitted. The media also might begin to probe these transactions more carefully for evidence of abuse.

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In September, for example, it was discovered that Cowboys-Eagles standing-room-only tickets were available on RazorGator.com, the Eagles' online ticket reselling partner, even though the tickets had not been made available for sale to the public. The initial suspicion was that the team was funneling tickets on a preferential basis to RazorGator. In the end, the fact was that RazorGator was selling seats that it had not yet acquired, prompting a cease-and-desist demand from the team.

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But the mere fact that NFL teams do business with companies that are scalping tickets by high-tech means (and, as in the RazorGator case, allegedly taking improper liberties) should be a cause for alarm.

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To date, the warning signs have been ignored. With the Patriots on the offensive against one of the leaders in the field, it'll be impossible (in our view) for the relationships between other teams and online scalpers to continue to escape scrutiny.

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And there's another problem here that the team's legal action could inadvertently be exposing.

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"What's the saying about people in glass houses?" said a league source regarding the lawsuit. "Do the owners really want people poking around about the re-sale of Super Bowl tickets? It might give exposure to something that most owners don't want seen."

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Reports recently surfaced regarding a federal grand jury in Ohio, which is believed to be exploring the handling of Super Bowl tickets by members of the Browns organization. And one of the league's dirty little secrets, as we understand it, is that some owners realize huge windfalls through the sale of "packages" that include the most coveted of all sports tickets.

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In the end, the lid could soon be blown off of these practices, due in large part by the efforts of one team to prevent third parties from doing the very same thing that NFL types have been doing with Super Bowl tickets for years.
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[PatsFan-NH]

The suit could do a lot more damage than the article listed.

The teams set their ticket prices to do 2 things, cover costs and make a profit, and thats fine. But if the reason for high prices is fair market value or what the market will bear, they will be in real trouble. If it comes out that they funnel tickets to re-sellers who sell them at inflated values, and then form the basis for setting fair market value, then the owners are probably engaging in fraud.

The owners can set their ticket prices for whatever value they want, but it is the behind the scenes manipulation of the market that may get them in trouble.

 

[BelichickFan]

The suit could do a lot more damage than the article listed.

The teams set their ticket prices to do 2 things, cover costs and make a profit, and thats fine. But if the reason for high prices is fair market value or what the market will bear, they will be in real trouble. If it comes out that they funnel tickets to re-sellers who sell them at inflated values, and then form the basis for setting fair market value, then the owners are probably engaging in fraud.

The owners can set their ticket prices for whatever value they want, but it is the behind the scenes manipulation of the market that may get them in trouble.

The way tickets sell, it's a really difficult argument to make that they're manipulating them high. The Krafts could probably charge $200 per ticket for every non season ticket seat and be sold out before the season started.

 

[sdaniels7114]

If the teams really wanted to crack down on scalping they'd just raise their prices. Scalpers exist because the teams aren't selling the tickets at what the market will bear.

Then again I don't know what the value is of ticket revenue that all comes in before even the first kickoff of the season, as opposed to revenue that trickles in as each game is played. Also I suppose security costs are less when you have the ability to punish someone by taking their season tickets away. Considering the history of security problems in Foxboro, I'm sure effective security as cheap as possible is very important. We are still the only group of fans in history that knocked down a goal post and carried it several miles away from the stadium as far as I know

 

[AStack75]

Hypocrites. They sell Super Bowl tickets through PrimeSport. $2000 for air, hotel, transportation. With a game ticket it's $4000.

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

Who cares? And you guys think that Maroney getting more touches is a useless thread? Ok

 

[PatsSteve1]

I'm not going to stick up for ticket scalpers, but IMO, when a fan resells his tickets, the team got what they wanted for them, so how are they hurt? I went to the Vikings game and the tickets were bought on Ebay for more than face value and I was happy to get them. The Vikings already got what they wanted for them so how are the Vikings hurt by that? IMO, reselling tickets is a victimless crime. No one is forced to pay the higher price. The team got what they wanted for them. The buyer got what they wanted and the seller, too. If people don't want to pay ticket scalper prices, don't buy the dam things. Duh.

 

[BelichickFan]

I'm not going to stick up for ticket scalpers, but IMO, when a fan resells his tickets, the team got what they wanted for them, so how are they hurt? I went to the Vikings game and the tickets were bought on Ebay for more than face value and I was happy to get them.

That's how I feel. I'll pay scalper's prices to go to a game once every few years, if someone makes a profit more power to them. If the Patriots want that money they can sell them at those prices and risk them going unsold.

 

[BelichickFan]

And, of course, ticket prices are way too high..... and something needs to be done to control this exhorbitant use of legal theft from hard working people.

LOL. The first time a person buys a ticket at a price he hasn't agreed to will be the first. Maybe Congress should get involved

You buy the product at the available price or you forgo the product, it works across the economy.

 

[PatsFan-NH]

LOL. The first time a person buys a ticket at a price he hasn't agreed to will be the first. Maybe Congress should get involved

You buy the product at the available price or you forgo the product, it works across the economy.

Actually it does happen that people buy tickets they didn't agree to, or at prices they don't want.

If you buy tickets at Ticketmaster, they use some new stupid computer routine that doesn't lock in the ticket being offered. I am talking about their outlets, not on-line. They offer you the ticket, you say yes and while the financial transaction is going through those tickets are sold somewhere else. What comes out of the printer are different seats than what you agreed to. They don't fix it either, you are stuck with it. I paid top dollar for great seats to a concert, and ended up with lesser seats. I might still have bought them, but not at the top price.

There are so many outlets working off the same ticket pool and things move so fast that they may even be offering tickets that are already sold, but haven't been updated as gone.

 

[BelichickFan]

Actually it does happen that people buy tickets they didn't agree to, or at prices they don't want.

If you buy tickets at Ticketmaster, they use some new stupid computer routine that doesn't lock in the ticket being offered. I am talking about their outlets, not on-line. They offer you the ticket, you say yes and while the financial transaction is going through those tickets are sold somewhere else. What comes out of the printer are different seats than what you agreed to. They don't fix it either, you are stuck with it. I paid top dollar for great seats to a concert, and ended up with lesser seats. I might still have bought them, but not at the top price.

There are so many outlets working off the same ticket pool and things move so fast that they may even be offering tickets that are already sold, but haven't been updated as gone.

I guess you know now, then, and should go through Ticketmaster on-line. I have no idea if what you said is true, I have no reason to leave my house to buy tickets. On-line you have two minutes to buy the exact seats they offer.

But we were talking about Patriots tickets, I believe, not concert tickets.

 

[PatsFan-NH]

I guess you know now, then, and should go through Ticketmaster on-line. I have no idea if what you said is true, I have no reason to leave my house to buy tickets. On-line you have two minutes to buy the exact seats they offer.

But we were talking about Patriots tickets, I believe, not concert tickets.

I have a wireless connection and can't get their on-line site to work. It gets all the way to the end of a purchase and then has a technical error, and the tickets I was trying to buy are gone.

'You have no reason to know if what I said is true' .... OK. So what is the point of the forum then ?

No, your comment was about it being a first if someone paid for a ticket they didn't agree to the price of, you may have assumed it was a Pats ticket, but you lacked specificity.

 

[BelichickFan]

you may have assumed it was a Pats ticket, but you lacked specificity.

It's a Patriots forum and the thread is about Patriots tickets. Duh.

 

[brady2brown]

Actually it does happen that people buy tickets they didn't agree to, or at prices they don't want.

If you buy tickets at Ticketmaster, they use some new stupid computer routine that doesn't lock in the ticket being offered. I am talking about their outlets, not on-line. They offer you the ticket, you say yes and while the financial transaction is going through those tickets are sold somewhere else. What comes out of the printer are different seats than what you agreed to. They don't fix it either, you are stuck with it. I paid top dollar for great seats to a concert, and ended up with lesser seats. I might still have bought them, but not at the top price.

There are so many outlets working off the same ticket pool and things move so fast that they may even be offering tickets that are already sold, but haven't been updated as gone.

The original poster was talking about NFL tickets in general and Patriots tickets is particular. How much you paid for a concert ticket or a parking ticket isn't germane to the question at hand.

Unless... have you ever purchased a ticket for a Patriots game and never gotten the seat advertised?

It happened to me twice. End zone tickets, three of them. The seats were set up wrong after a concert and one of the seats didn't exist. They offered to give me one ticket way in the back, but I said I wanted three together. The guy gave me better seats, 8th row on the goal line.

Another time I received a call from the pats ticket office. The seats I bought (third level) were not available. THey offered me three is section 109. It didn't take long to say yes.

All that said, I have never bought tickets for one seat and received different seats when I picked up my tickets. All were mistakes caught by the stadium people.

 

[pats1]

Who cares? And you guys think that Maroney getting more touches is a useless thread? Ok

Who cares? Not everyone is an STH. When StubHub has hundreds of tickets but at anywhere from 3x to 10x their face value, and you're trying to find tickets, it pisses you off. Especially when it's blatant illegal activity.

(But is it TIGHT?)

 

[QuiGon]

I don't understand the logic behind scalping being illegal. We live in a capitalistic society. We are talking about a luxury item, not something like food, health care, medicine or heating oil.

If I buy $500 worth of Tom Brady cards and he wins another Super Bowl and someone offers me $1,000, that's perfectly legal. If I wait in line 72 hours to buy a PS3 for $600 and sell it on eBay for $2,000, that's perfectly legal. If I am a car dealer and buy 200 cars from Volkswagen for $20,000 each and sell them for $25,000 each, that's perfectly legal.

But for some reason in many states, tickets do not fall into our capitalistic system... go figure...

 

[QuiGon]

Who cares? Not everyone is an STH. When StubHub has hundreds of tickets but at anywhere from 3x to 10x their face value, and you're trying to find tickets, it pisses you off. Especially when it's blatant illegal activity.

Set aside the legality of scalping and answer me this: Why does it "piss you off" that Chicago-NE tickets sell for what people are willing to pay...? Where's the logic in getting mad at the free enterprise system at work...?

 

[QuiGon]

Consequently, each year when tickets go on sale, the ticket brokers (ticket agency) gobble up as many of the tickets as they can, on a season ticket basis, and they have hundreds, if not thousands, to sell a inflated prices.

And I am sure they are all losing a fortune as the Cardinals have exploded into a 2-8 season.

 

[QuiGon]

Hypocrites. They sell Super Bowl tickets through PrimeSport. $2000 for air, hotel, transportation. With a game ticket it's $4000.

That's an absolutely brilliant point, and it explains why every single Pats STH I know (and I know about 20 of them) wasn't offered any tickets for any of the 4 Super Bowl NE has gone to during the Kraft era. The team scalps the tickets themselves, only through another shill company. It's one of the dirty little secrets.

 

[QuiGon]

I'm not going to stick up for ticket scalpers, but IMO, when a fan resells his tickets, the team got what they wanted for them, so how are they hurt? I went to the Vikings game and the tickets were bought on Ebay for more than face value and I was happy to get them. The Vikings already got what they wanted for them so how are the Vikings hurt by that? IMO, reselling tickets is a victimless crime. No one is forced to pay the higher price. The team got what they wanted for them. The buyer got what they wanted and the seller, too. If people don't want to pay ticket scalper prices, don't buy the dam things. Duh.

That's exactly how I feel. The funny thing is what people fail to realize is that if scalping is illegal, the people that are hurt the most are the consumers.

I was able to go to Super Bowl 39 because I went to eBay and bought tickets. I paid a small fortune but it was worth it to me. Where's the problem in that...?