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Patriots offense has become far too scheme heavy


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SF switched to zone after halftime and let NE back in the game.

Don't waste your breath offering clarity. Don't you know the Pats do no wrong and only external factors derail them .......the last 8 years.
 
In 2011, the Patriots had the lead with just minutes left in the Super Bowl. They reached that point without Lloyd and with a hobbled Gronk. What they needed to win a Super Bowl was one defensive stop, not an outside receiver.

A middle-deep threat was needed, and Lloyd was brought in, but the Patriots aren't losing Super Bowls and AFCCGs because they're missing one player on offense or there's too much scheme. They're losing games because a combination of factors end up working against them.

Yes, the Pats had a paper thin lead in the 2007 and 2011 Super Bowls.

Thats the problem. If youre going to win all season because youre the highest scoring offense in the NFL, you cannot suddenly go back to playing close to the vest in the post season expecting a miracle on defense.
 
In the AFCCG, they lost the brawl in the trenches and were worn out by a physically tougher team defensively on that day. Their offensive schemes are among the best in the NFL and dovetail with the Pats' personnel.

There are several areas for improvement but this isn't really one of them.
 
Regarding the Jets - I made a point and clearly wrote "one time", I never said the lowly Jets created the blueprint to stop us...no way, they played one really good game at just the right time. Take a look back (if your stomach can take it) at that game and remember, we were within 3 points starting the 4th quarter having overcome a stupid fake punt call, mental errors etc. Yet, they did manage to hold us to 21 points and sacked brady 5 times.

The "style" that I see succeed against is usually heavy pressure, usually up the middle while the secondary is clogging the middle at the same time. The first time I recall seeing it was Ravens Monday night game in 2007, that was the game where the great catch by Gaffney bailed us out. That was followed by the regular season game vs the Giants in the Meadowlands, yes we won, but that game gave the Giants the confidence and realization that their system and match ups on defense were favorable for them. While the game was decided by a fluke catch, questionable calls and flat out dumb luck, they way their defense played us enabled them to be in a position to win that game.

Next up was Ravens trouncing us at Gillette knocking us out of the playoffs, followed by yet another Giant win in a superbowl (after we barely snuck by the Ravens)and finally, of course, this years loss in the AFC championship game.

High powered offenses need to score points...we haven't been able to do that against these two teams and it has cost us dearly.

Starting with the game in 2007 against the ravens we played them 7 times winning four of them....however, our average points comes out to 22.5.

Against the Giants since the 2007 game we have played them four times, winning only once and our average points came out to 22.3.

It just seems obvious to me that we have simply not been able to play well enough and score enough points (22 hasn't cut it) to overcome the "style" manifested by pressure and coverage as I described above, in particular against the Giants & Ravens.

That's true. For the 2012 AFC Championship game (this past season), I just can't help think of anything but "Red zone, red zone, red zone!"

Patriots: 1/4
Ravens: 4/4

The thing that irritates me at times is the fact that the Patriots were moving the ball well at times, only to have their drives stalled by miscues, etc.

When it's the postseason, you just can't afford to leave points on the board.

Credit should be given to the Ravens for taking advantage of all of their opportunities to score.

And hopefully if the Patriots want to make it far next season, they need to take advantage of these opportunities when they present itself.
 
But thats exactly my point. You (and others) say every time a team plays a certain style against us they stop us. Since the Jets were the start of that thinking, if it were true, they would continue playing that style.
Take the Jets out of the equation, please - that one game was an aberration, I agree.
The argument has now become listing the teams/games we didn't play well and pretending they are similar teams with similar approaches and they simply aren't.
most of those games were playoffs or Superbowls



Thats a game, not proof a style that owns us.


Thats not really a style, that is a team effectively pass rushing. The clogging the middle is a gratuitious throw in.



The Ravens didn't play the scheme the Jets did in 10, they gambled, took chances, held on every play, and hoped to get big plays. The Jets plan was to drop up to 8 in coverage and hit after the catch.



Didnt we score 38 points?
followed by 14, 20 and 17



Fluke? What catch was a fluke?
I had gone on to the AZ Superbowl - helmet catch to beat us


Umm, no their offense kept them in the game. Their defense barely slowed us down. We had 400 yards of offense, 38 points, and Brady was 32-42-356 with 0 ints and was sacked once.
If the Giants confidence was based on how they 'handled' our offense in that game, they wouldn't have shown up for the SB.
They played vanilla and still damn near beat us - Giants didn't show all schemes in 2007 finale vs. Patriots, which was key to Super Bowl upset - NY Daily News


So you have named the losses. I agree we lost those games. You have done nothing to show a trend of how, or what teams do to beat us. You can't because it isn't there.
Yet, we pretty much see the same things - Brady having off games, many sacks, frustrated offense, offense performing below expectations, even Brady saying he "sucked", whatever the reason, when we play ravens or giants our offense is really not answering the bell. If you want to eliminate "trend" and chalk it up to simply two superior defenses, fine.


Every offense needs to score points.
You make it like a great offense that scores less against a good team is worse than having a bad offense that scores less against good teams, because everyone scores less against good teams, after all.


Because they are historically a good defense. Do you expect us to score more against good teams? How much have they allowed per game?
They allowed 18 ppg over those years, so we exceeded what they allow by 25%.
Conversely, we scored 31 per game over that time, which means we averaged
27% less vs them than our average.
So in other words, when we faced a good D we beat what they allow by almost exactly the same amount as they cut what we score. So, there is no abnormal difference here.



So, the Giants beat us 3 out of 4.
What does that have to do with your argument. The Giants play a very different style of defense than either the Jets or Ravens. In fact, the Giants had different coordinators in 07 and 11 and a bunch of different players.



We have had games where we don't score a lot of points.
The teams you are pulling out a handful of games over a 6 year stretch are not similar at all.
They do not cover the same as each other, they do not generate pressure the same. Hell, some of those games (including this year) had absolutely nothing to so with pass rush.

Sometimes other teams play good defense. Sometimes they score more points than we do.
There really are no other similarities.

Three playoff losses and two superbowl losses and in all of them, the offense did not perform as expected. Those "sometimes" are at the worst possible times. OP called it scheme heavy. Maybe i am off base or not with my alluding to a certain style that a couple of teams play where i see similar things with the same damn result - fact is, it ain't working when most needed. It hurts me to write this.
 
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Yes, the Pats had a paper thin lead in the 2007 and 2011 Super Bowls.

Thats the problem. If youre going to win all season because youre the highest scoring offense in the NFL, you cannot suddenly go back to playing close to the vest in the post season expecting a miracle on defense.

The Pats won two Super Bowls in last second field goals. The other Super Bowl, they won by 3 points off of a Rodney Harrison interception that stopped what might have been a game winning drive for the Eagles and what most of surely would have been the game tying drive to send to overtime (the Eagles were on the Pats' 24 yard line when McNabb was intercepted by Harrison). So the Pats won their three Super Bowls by a combined 9 points. There was a paper thin difference in plays between the years the Pats won the Super Bowl and years they lost the Super Bowl.

Fact of the matter is that you have two really good teams playing in the Super Bowl.

Was it the Pats' complicated offensive schemes that made David Tyree catch an impossible catch with his helmet?

Was it the Pats' complicated offensive schemes that made Asante Samuel drop an easy INT which would have won the game?

Was it the Pats' complicated offensive schemes that had the Pats' defense 12 men on the field on third and 3 play in the red zone where the Pats strip and recover the ball which sets up the first Giants' TD rather than a Patriots turnover?

I do agree that the Pats should simplify their offense. Why should really good defenses have all the fun? The Pats should make their offense so even average and bad defenses can stop the Pats' offense.
 
I really don't get these constant threads about too scheme heavy. Where do they come from?

One of the biggest strengths of this offense during the entire Brady era is the fact that the Pats offense is too complicated for defenses to figure out. People want to take that away.

So let's simplify this offense so that mediocre receivers like Brandon Tate, Joey Galloway (at the point he was here), and Chad Jackson can pick it up. It will cost the Pats a lot of victories, but at least the Pats won't be responsible for the psyche of young WRs like Tate, Jackson, and others getting crushed. Isn't that really what counts?

What this team needs is to get the defense back to being as complicated as the offense, not simplifying the offense. This defense used to be very confusing for opposing offenses with a lot of presnap movements, disguised rushes, delayed blitzes, etc. Not the defense is much more vanilla.

Even the best offenses struggle in the playoffs at times. For the most part, the difference in the Super Bowl winning years was when the Pats' offense struggled the defense had their backs and controlled the game.
 
I'm tired of watching the God have to throw perfect passes to midgets while Guys like flacco and Ryan have multiple guys that they can just throw it up too and go get it.
 
I'm tired of watching the God have to throw perfect passes to midgets while Guys like flacco and Ryan have multiple guys that they can just throw it up too and go get it.

Yeah, what this team needs is a really big receiver like Rob Gronkowski (6'6", 265lbs) or Aaron Hernandez (6'1", 245lbs). Wish we had one like him.

Also, Lloyd made a lot of catches where Brady threw the ball off target and he went up, down, and backwards to get it.

But you'd rather have a guy like the immensely overrated Torrey Smith who was mostly invisible during the playoffs except for two big catches against Denver?
 
For years we enjoyed pointing out to Colts fans that it's how one does in the PLAYOFFS that matters, yet we now forget that truth because we're just like they were.

Exactly. I don't give a **** how many points we score in the RS when we score 14 and 17 in Superbowls
 
For years we enjoyed pointing out to Colts fans that it's how one does in the PLAYOFFS that matters, yet we now forget that truth because we're just like they were.

Several things:

-The Colts' biggest problem was that they had a small finesse DEFENSE that could get out muscled. It wasn't all on the offense.
-The rules have changed since then. The rules now are more offensively focused.
-The Pats have a power running game that they can use when they need it. Unfortunately, it was weakened by the loss of Gronk since Hernandez and the Ho man are bad blockers.

Yes, the Colts' comparison is valid in some ways, but mostly in how it relates to the Patriots' defense not as much the Pats' offense.

People forget that the Pats moved the ball pretty well against the Ravens in both game this past year. The problem in the playoffs was they were missing their big red zone target in Gronk which is why they got one TD in 5 red zone trips.
 
Those defenses didn't play the same style.
Since the game the Jets supposedly created the 'blueprint' we have scored 30,37,29,49 against them.
If 'every time a team plays that style we are stopped cold' why did the Jets decided to stop playing that style so they could lose 4 straight and allow 36.3 ppg against us?

In fairness to the Jets, I think they have some sort of blueprint. If the Jets had anything resembling a QB or an offense, we wouldn't score nearly as much on them. In the first game, the Jets D had us on lockdown for most of it. In the 2nd game, buttfumble, kickoff fumble, giving up on the Edelman/Vereen plays, etc.

I know you'll disagree, but the Jets defense plays us tough IMO.
 
Three playoff losses and two superbowl losses and in all of them, the offense did not perform as expected. Those "sometimes" are at the worst possible times. OP called it scheme heavy. Maybe i am off base or not with my alluding to a certain style that a couple of teams play where i see similar things with the same damn result - fact is, it ain't working when most needed. It hurts me to write this.

The reason why the Pats have turned into the 2001 Rams is because the defense has been in transition trying to rebuild. A lot of high draft pick Jags and Bums have made their way through the Pats locker room these last 8 years. Brady is the Pats best player and NE wouldnt even be in the chase some of these seasons if not for him. If thats the way its going to be then the Pats need better playermakers on offense.

I dont like it but the defense is still wishy washy. The pass defense is still a huge concern giving up yards and points like a sieve.
 
Was it the Pats' complicated offensive schemes that made David Tyree catch an impossible catch with his helmet?

Was it the Pats' complicated offensive schemes that made Asante Samuel drop an easy INT which would have won the game?

Was it the Pats' complicated offensive schemes that had the Pats' defense 12 men on the field on third and 3 play in the red zone where the Pats strip and recover the ball which sets up the first Giants' TD rather than a Patriots turnover?

You're cherry picking a few plays, there were tons of other plays which aren't quite as highlight worthy which harmed drives, maybe if we converted even one of those 3rd downs we wouldn't have been in the position where the dropped INT by Samuel was critical.

As far as defending the complicated offense, why is it that I keep hearing about "less moving parts" makes something a lot more reliable and sought after.

Something should be only as complicated as it needs to be, part of the problem with trying to be overly complicated is that you can often confuse yourself along with your opponent. Many great teams with plenty of rings between them did NOT have a complicated offense, the Packer sweep wasn't complicated but was very difficult for defenses to stop. The Cowboys of the early 90s didn't run a lot of plays, they were just very good at executing the ones they did run.

It's been a while since we won the Lombardi, and many teams with "simple" offenses have won it in the mean time. Perhaps more time should be spent on making the offense "effective in the playoffs" rather than 'complicated'. One final thing, a lot of teams have been having fast success with newly drafted QBs because they're altering their schemes to fit what the QBs have been doing, there's a lesson there.
 
People over-analyze the offensive struggles in the last two playoff losses.

The reason is simple: Gronkowski was hurt...

That's crap. So an offense with a top 3 QB, a top 10 TE, a top 10 WR, and one of the best #2 WRs in the game should just get shut down?
 
Yes, the Pats had a paper thin lead in the 2007 and 2011 Super Bowls.

Thats the problem. If youre going to win all season because youre the highest scoring offense in the NFL, you cannot suddenly go back to playing close to the vest in the post season expecting a miracle on defense.

Teams don't play at the exact same level, in all facets of play, in every single game. This is, doubtless, a shock to you, since you don't seem to understand that, but it's true. Arguably the greatest defense of all time, the '85 Bears, wasn't good enough to stop the Dolphins from putting up 38 on them, and another defense argued among the best all time, the 2000 Ravens, watched as the Jacksonville Jaguars put up 36. Even the best offenses have off games, and even the best defenses get lit up. Hopefully, one day, you'll figure this out.
 
No, you couldn't. Well, more accurately, you [highlight]could[/highlight] say that, but it would be false and an example of arguing against the plain evidence.

The best offense of all time scoring 14 points is not a matter of concern?
 
The best offense of all time scoring 14 points is not a matter of concern?

That's not what you wrote. What you wrote, that I responded to, was:

You could also say the defense was good enough and the offense was at fault for not putting away the game earlier.
 
Teams don't play at the exact same level, in all facets of play, in every single game. This is, doubtless, a shock to you, since you don't seem to understand that, but it's true. Arguably the greatest defense of all time, the '85 Bears, wasn't good enough to stop the Dolphins from putting up 38 on them, and another defense argued among the best all time, the 2000 Ravens, watched as the Jacksonville Jaguars put up 36. Even the best offenses have off games, and even the best defenses get lit up. Hopefully, one day, you'll figure this out.

Yes, anomalies exist, but the Pats offense falling flat in the playoffs has become a consistency, big difference there.
 
Yes, anomalies exist, but the Pats offense falling flat in the playoffs has become a consistency, big difference there.

Your argument simply isn't true. That's the problem.

41 points against the Texans
45 points against the Broncos


You, and the others griping without thinking points through, ignore those games because they kill your arguments.
 
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