Patriots have a Top 10 defense

[tanked_as_usual]

If I understand this thread correctly, we are not a top 10 defense because we got beaten by the saints and the colts. Having been beaten by the top two offenses in the nfl means that 10 defenses are better than ours. Why?

Surely, there are nine defenses who would have shut down Brees and Manning. ????

no....because we allow just about every QB to perform 10-20 points higher than their overall rating

Surely you don't see the pats as a legitimate top 10 defense, do you? say it ain't so, Joe

 

[ATippett56]

CHFF Defensive Hog Index

Cold, Hard Football Facts.com: 2009 Defensive Hog Index

 

[Ochmed Jones]

How many of our losses have been the defenses fault? 1 (New Orleans), maybe a second if you count the Colts game..

Our defense is not superior, but they are playing at a high level.

Our offense, especially the play calling by the OC and decision making by Brady, are not carrying their weight. In the second half of games, other teams adjust and our offense does not and they are getting shut down miserably.

The offense is hanging the defense out to dry in the second half of games.

 

[dhamz]

How many of our losses have been the defenses fault? 1 (New Orleans), maybe a second if you count the Colts game..

Our defense is not superior, but they are playing at a high level.

Our offense, especially the play calling by the OC and decision making by Brady, are not carrying their weight. In the second half of games, other teams adjust and our offense does not and they are getting shut down miserably.

The offense is hanging the defense out to dry in the second half of games.

Exectations of the defense are remarkably low if they are potentially blameless in the Colts debacle where they gave up 35 points, fully blameless in the Denver game where they gave up 2 90+ yard TD drives, and also blameless in the Miami game where they gave up 5 scoring drives, 2 of over 80 yards, and allowed Miami to drive for the winning score in the last 2 minutes.

They contributed very strongly to 4 of the 5 losses and didn't make a play in the 5th when they had the chance (I believe it was Thomas dropping an INT deep in Jets territory).

You can flip all this around and say exactly the same type of thing about the offense. You almost always can in football which is why it is the ultimate team game.

 

[rabthepat]

The panic I saw in our team's defense, against the Colts, will out weigh any stat thrown up on this message board. They should come up with a measurement for "Defensive Panic When It Counts". We would be #1.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

This years defense sh!ts the bed when they play against good teams with great quarterbacks and sorry to tell you all...there are 4 of the best QBs in the AFC in the top 4 seeds,thank god we don't play against Brady at least.

 

[Disco Volante]

The panic I saw in our team's defense, against the Colts, will out weigh any stat thrown up on this message board. They should come up with a measurement for "Defensive Panic When It Counts". We would be #1.

The defense has preserved leads in 2 games where the other team had a chance to take the lead on their final drive, they're not completely incapable.

Week 1: Bills: 0:50 left [down 1 point]
Week 4: Ravens: 03:32 left [down 6 points] *Top 10 offense*

This years defense sh!ts the bed when they play against good teams

2007 Giants Defense

@ Cowboys - 45
vs Vikings - 41
vs Patriots - 38
vs Packers - 35
vs Cowboys - 31

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

The defense has preserved leads in 2 games where the other team had a chance to take the lead on their final drive, they're not completely incapable.

Week 1: Bills: 0:50 left [down 1 point]
Week 4: Ravens: 03:32 left [down 6 points] *Top 10 offense*



2007 Giants Defense

@ Cowboys - 45
vs Vikings - 41
vs Patriots - 38
vs Packers - 35
vs Cowboys - 31

Its a matter of defenses getting red hot down the stretch...the 2006 Colts did as well as the 2007 Giants who should have beaten the Pats in week 16 - Is this defense really capable of playing lights out the next 2 games and be red hot?

 

[Deus Irae]

The defense has preserved leads in 2 games where the other team had a chance to take the lead on their final drive, they're not completely incapable.

Week 1: Bills: 0:50 left [down 1 point]
Week 4: Ravens: 03:32 left [down 6 points] *Top 10 offense*

Saying that the defense did anything to preserve the lead against the Ravens is stretching to the point of breakage. The Ravens' receiver was the only player on that field that had the ability to stop the Ravens from scoring.

That leaves a :50 possession by the Bills. If you're hanging your hat on that...

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

Saying that the defense did anything to preserve the lead against the Ravens is stretching to the point of breakage. The Ravens' receiver was the only player on that field that had the ability to stop the Ravens from scoring.

That leaves a :50 possession by the Bills. If you're hanging your hat on that...

You are right. Had Clayton caught that pass, I doubt the Pats would've stopped the Ravens from scoring. Butler didn't have very good coverage on that play.

As for Disco Volante, stats are for losers. You've seen how "top offenses" have exposed the Pats for what they are - a mediocre defense. The reason why the Pats are statistically rated in the top 10 is because of the majority of offenses they have played. The only two offenses that are considered elite are Indy and New Orleans. The rest are average at best and the Pats still lost to 3 of those teams (Jets, Dolphins and Broncos).

You compare the 2007 Giants to the 2009 New England Patriots? There are two important ingredients the Giants had that the Pats do not.
1. Their entire D-line consisted of insane pass rushers - The Pats don't have any
2. Their scheme was and still is an attacking style defense - The Pats are mostly passive

The Giants weren't very good "statistically" but they could get after you whenever they want. They played like the best defense in the NFL in super bowl #42.

Again, stats are for losers.

 

[patsfan-1982]

The defense has preserved leads in 2 games where the other team had a chance to take the lead on their final drive, they're not completely incapable.

Week 1: Bills: 0:50 left [down 1 point]
Week 4: Ravens: 03:32 left [down 6 points] *Top 10 offense*



2007 Giants Defense

@ Cowboys - 45
vs Vikings - 41
vs Patriots - 38
vs Packers - 35
vs Cowboys - 31

the 2007 giants did not just turn in to a great D over night they just did what they do best get to the QB they had 52 sacks on years the and 32 of them from Osi Umenyiora, Michael Strahan, and Justin Tuck, and that all they did to the pats in the super bowl was let dose 3 guys get after brady and they put two guys and welker and moss. just like the saints did

the pats can't play that game cause they only have 28 sacks and 10 of them VS the bills im sorry to say but none of the playoff teams have the bills. O line

 

[Disco Volante]

Saying that the defense did anything to preserve the lead against the Ravens is stretching to the point of breakage. The Ravens' receiver was the only player on that field that had the ability to stop the Ravens from scoring.

That leaves a :50 possession by the Bills. If you're hanging your hat on that...

A top ten offense/current AFC playoff team had 1st & 10 in our red zone with a little over a minute left and weren't able to get in the end zone.

I'm not going to accredit a single drop with the sole reason they weren't able to score a TD against our defense with over three minutes remaining.

Its a matter of defenses getting red hot down the stretch...the 2006 Colts did as well as the 2007 Giants

The Giants 2007 regular season defense was giving up 26 PPG in their final three games of the season, while going 1-2.

You've seen how "top offenses" have exposed the Pats for what they are - a mediocre defense.

Can you provide a defense that hasn't been "exposed" this year?

 

[Deus Irae]

A top ten offense/current AFC playoff team had 1st & 10 in our red zone with a little over a minute left and weren't able to get in the end zone.

I'm not going to accredit a single drop with the sole reason they weren't able to score a TD against our defense with over three minutes remaining.

It's first and goal, with plenty of time left 30+), if the receiver doesn't gas pipe it on that play.

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

Can you provide a defense that hasn't been "exposed" this year?

There aren't any "shut down" defenses this year. Every defense gets exposed but some can turn it on because of their pass rushers - unlike the Pats.

 

[dhamz]

Can you provide a defense that hasn't been "exposed" this year?

I've never figured out what this has to do with the Pats defense.

If the Colts/Chargers get the ball against the Pats in January down 2 points with 2 minutes go will it matter to us that the Ravens, Steelers or Dolphins defenses probably wouldn't have been good enough to stop them either?

 

[Disco Volante]

If the Colts/Chargers get the ball against the Pats in January down 2 points with 2 minutes go will it matter to us that the Ravens, Steelers or Dolphins defenses probably wouldn't have been good enough to stop them either?

The point is that the Patriots defense is no worse (at least significantly) than any other team that will be in the playoffs.

Every defense gets exposed but some can turn it on because of their pass rushers - unlike the Pats.

Well, the top two defenses in the NFL (Jets/Ravens) both rank lower than the Patriots in sacks.

 

[mayoclinic]

Well, the top two defenses in the NFL (Jets/Ravens) both rank lower than the Patriots in sacks.

It's amazing what a 6 sack game will do for your ranking. Almost 25% of Cleveland's sacks (8/33) came in one game against Pittsburgh.

I suspect the Jets and Ravens generate a lot more consistent pressure on opposing QBs than we have done. But an interesting observation, nonetheless.

 

[Deus Irae]

The point is that the Patriots defense is no worse (at least significantly) than any other team that will be in the playoffs.



Well, the top two defenses in the NFL (Jets/Ravens) both rank lower than the Patriots in sacks.

To be generous with the term "good", here are the "good" offenses the Patriots have faced this season:

Baltimore
Denver
Indianapolis
Atlanta
New Orleans

That's 5 games, and the Patriots' defense recorded a whopping 6 sacks in those 5 games. That's not even pointing out the complete lack of consistent pressure applied in most of those games.

Current AFC playoff teams:

Baltimore
Indy
Denver
Cincy
San Diego

Which of those defenses do you think isn't better than New England's defense?

 

[mayoclinic]

To be generous with the term "good", here are the "good" offenses the Patriots have faced this season:

Baltimore
Denver
Indianapolis
Atlanta
New Orleans

That's 5 games, and the Patriots' defense recorded a whopping 6 sacks in those 5 games. That's not even pointing out the complete lack of consistent pressure applied in most of those games.

Current AFC playoff teams:

Baltimore
Indy
Denver
Cincy
San Diego

Which of those defenses do you think isn't better than New England's defense?

In all fairness, we're not the only defense to have padded our stats against poor competition. Take Baltimore, who has the second lowest PPG in the NFL right now at 16.1. They've allowed 7 or less points to 5-9 Chicago (7), 2-12 Detroit (3), and 3-11 Cleveland twice (3 and 0). But they gave up 27 to 9-5 Green Bay, 27 to 9-5 New England, 26 to 11-3 San Diego, and 33 to 11-3 Minnesota. The only top offense which they held under 20 points was Indy (17). Pittsburgh (17), Denver (7) and Cincinnati (17 twice) are not top scoring offenses right now, none ranking higher than 15th (Steelers, at 22 PPG).

Baltimore has a porous secondary (except for Ed Reed). I'm not sure I would consider their defense clearly better than ours. I don't think Indy's defense is better than ours. And I certainly don't think San Diego has a better defense than we do. Certainly it's not obvious that those defenses are markedly better than ours. Denver and Cincinnati I will give you.

 

[Deus Irae]

In all fairness, we're not the only defense to have padded our stats against poor competition. Take Baltimore, who has the second lowest PPG in the NFL right now at 16.1. They've allowed 7 or less points to 5-9 Chicago (7), 2-12 Detroit (3), and 3-11 Cleveland twice (3 and 0). But they gave up 27 to 9-5 Green Bay, 27 to 9-5 New England, 26 to 11-3 San Diego, and 33 to 11-3 Minnesota. The only top offense which they held under 20 points was Indy (17). Pittsburgh (17), Denver (7) and Cincinnati (17 twice) are not top scoring offenses right now, none ranking higher than 15th (Steelers, at 22 PPG).

I wasn't pointing to every stat, because you'll generally find that most winning teams' best statistical games will come against losing teams. I was pointing specifically to the sacks number, because that's what the back-and-forth was about. While 2007 demonstrated all too well that anything can happen in a given game, six sacks in 5 games against "good" offenses does not bode well for getting great pressure against teams in the playoffs.

Baltimore has a porous secondary (except for Ed Reed). I'm not sure I would consider their defense clearly better than ours. I don't think Indy's defense is better than ours. And I certainly don't think San Diego has a better defense than we do. Certainly it's not obvious that those defenses are markedly better than ours. Denver and Cincinnati I will give you.

New England's is the worst defense currently in the AFC playoffs, imo (and I disagree with you and would take San Diego's current defense over the Patriots' current defense all day long. The last bad game that Chargers' defense played was in the middle of October). Having said that, I'd say that the Broncos' defense is more than capable of tossing in a stinker, especially if you can stop the pass rush, and I'd say that the Colts' defense would become much less impressive if teams had the balls to run on it all day instead of panicking and starting to throw all the time.

This is all fluid stuff, and positioning can change with better/worse play (Springs getting more comfortable as he plays more should help, for example), injuries and the like, but that's how I see it right now.