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Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by Deus Irae, Nov 3, 2008.

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  1. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Ok, once again I'll list them off bullet point style, but first I think something needs to be said.

    This is not Tom Brady and the Flying Patriots. This is Matt Cassel and the Walking Wounded. People here really need to stop demanding perfection, and to start realizing that an 11-12 win season will be a great success for this team given all the adversity. I could, and probably should, say more, but if people can't grasp that first obvious point and its ramifications, the rest is just a waste of time. Now, on to the observations:

    1.) There was nothing wrong with the idea of the challenge for 12 men on the field. The team thought there was an opportunity to turn a failed first down play into a first and five. It is one that they should have been certain of before tossing the flag on, though, since it was just a matter of counting.

    2.) Matt Cassel continues to improve, and he definitely played well enough to win last night.

    3.) Matt Cassel continues to not be Tom Brady, and that has a tremendous impact on the opponents' strategy. It also changed the Patriots' strategy, which far too many people here don't seem to understand.

    4.) BJGE ran pretty well last night all things considered, but this team really needs to get the better runners back if they are going to win the division.

    5.) Moss is showing signs of patience that weren't there earlier in the season, and that should really help the team's mentality.

    6.) Mayo is very, very fast. Unfortunately, he's also a rookie, and that's still really hurting the team on several plays a game. You get the good, and you get the bad.

    7.) The offensive line is looking much better. Neal makes an enormous difference, as I think people are starting to figure out. I still think the Patriots win the Super Bowl last season if he doesn't get hurt, and nothing I'm seeing with his return to the lineup has convinced me I'm wrong.

    8.) Kevin Faulk is Kevin Faulk, for which we should be grateful.

    9.) I keep harping on it, but Daniel Graham should still be here.

    10.) People are banging on Thomas for his penalty, and rightfully so, but the biggest screw up of the game was Gaffney's drop.

    11.) I wish BB hadn't called that timeout on 4th down and then gone for the field goal. The team had a chance to really make a statement there, in light of the San Diego game. I don't think BB was wrong, but I'd have preferred the team go for it.

    12.) The league has got to start calling those pick plays on teams like the Colts when they plow right into the defenders. That was inexcusable last night.

    13.) The offensive game plan was brilliant, and the execution was almost flawless. Unfortunately, almost was not quite good enough.

    14.) People have complained about the pass rush, but they seem to be overlooking 2 key things. First, it was against Manning, and you almost never get sacks against him. Second, they held the Colts to 2.2 yards per rush.

    15.) I didn't like the decision to go for 2 because I thought the 2 field goal lead was fine at that point in the game. On the other hand, it's hard to bash the coach for thinking that a touchdown's worth of points was needed against Peyton Manning.

    There's a lot more that I'd like to say about last night's game, actually, but this will have to do in the interest of space.
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  2. emoney_33

    emoney_33 Rookie

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    I agree with most of your post, except for a few points.


    Disagree. In the 2nd half against the Colts, I think timeouts are at a premium. Risking one for 5 yards is not OK IMO.


    Could you explain this one?


    I agree, we have a lot of young speed on the defense but also a lot of inexperience. We'll have some growing pains but hopefully less mistakes later in the year.


    I dunno, I'm kind of torn on this one, whether to just tie it up or go for the throat. The timeout however has no excuse, make your decision and stick with it!



    On an aside, Welker completely wiffed on a block on a screen to Moss, but no call of lack of effort from you.
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2008
  3. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    It wasn't just 5 yards, which is a mistake a lot of people have made. It was the difference between 1 and 5 and 2nd and about 10. Given the game plan, that's a significant difference.


    Yes. I'm not trying to denigrate Mayo at all, because he's done well for a rookie. But he got taken advantage of, particularly during that first long touchdown drive by Manning.

    BB supposedly changed his mind because he at first thought it was 4th and inches and then realized it was longer than that. To me, it was less than a yard either way, and it was a chance to get the taste of San Diego out of their mouths.


    Welker's miss on the tackle was not due to lack of effort. If you missed it, go back and listen to Michaels/Madden talking about it.
  4. BradyManny

    BradyManny Rookie

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    I pretty much agree with every point you raise.

    6 - On Mayo, I actually thought last nite was one of the game where he didn't have any misreads or mistakes. He gave up a couple pass plays in coverage, but I thought they were mostly good plays by the Colts, Manning finding holes in the zone, or the responsibility of another player in coverage. He and Guyton generally looked great last nite and were definitely bright spots.
  5. emoney_33

    emoney_33 Rookie

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    I understand that and I still feel the timeout is worth more against the Colts. Whoever told BB to challenge it from upstairs may have screwed up if he told BB it was close to a sure win.



    Yea that one is on BB, but at least we know it won't happen often.





    It amazes me how you believe you have the ability to determine what is and isn't caused by effort or lack thereof. I am not saying Welker lacked effort, I am just showing the Moss bias.
  6. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Again, go back and listen to Michaels/Madden for an explanation. It has nothing to do with a belief on my part.
  7. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    1010101010 WTF? I preview this and all the CAPITAL letters, including Deus' original post show up as lower case? Holy shades of e.e. cummings batIan!
  8. emoney_33

    emoney_33 Rookie

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    I don't really care about Michaels/Madden opinion. I was talking about your effort rants on Moss last week where a key point was Moss missing a block on a screen to Welker. But just forget it now, it went way over your head.
  9. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    It didn't go over my head. You are hung up on something that has nothing to do with the particular play you're pointing to. There's a rule about the timing of the block on that play. As I said, look to the game commentary.
  10. emoney_33

    emoney_33 Rookie

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    Ok sorry you have no bias.
  11. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I do have a problem with challenging 12 men on the field, but more so with whoever is in the booth. They should have counted to make sure that there was really 12 men on the field in the first place before they told Belichick to challenge. The Colts had only 11 and if they got the guy coming off the field in time before the snap they would have only had 10.

    I still didn't think it was a play worthy of a challenge, but wouldn't have had a problem with the challenge if someone actually took the time to count how many people were on the field and make sure it was 12.
  12. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Everyone has bias.
  13. JoeSixPat

    JoeSixPat Rookie

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    I agree - Except for the lack of a W, this game was everything I expected it to be.

    The team is 5-3 at the half - and Cassel is looking more confident and stronger than ever.

    Whether his inability to get rid of the football in timely fashion is to blame or the OL was to blame for poor protection prior to this point, both look improved.

    Faulk is great and the Lawfirm of BenJarvus Green-Ellis - my preseason darkhorse to make the roster - is playing better than even I had hoped (though I had hoped we'd never really need him either) - but that was against an Indy team that was weak against the run, so time will tell. I'm happy we have them both.

    Dropped passes and penalties are part of the game - Dave Thomas says he didn't hear the whistle, and they're trained to play until they hear the whistle. So if we're willing to take him at his word, it's unfortunate but forgivable.

    The health of the DBs is the biggest concern for me at this point - but overall, even though I'm always concerned about health, I think the team is well poised to improve over the last 8 games with another 5 wins realistic and a good shot at the playoffs.

    At that point health will dictate their post season success.
  14. mike_usagisan

    mike_usagisan Rookie

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    I can see both points of view on whether the challenge was even worth calling there, but from my recollection, there wasn't a whole lot of time for the guys upstairs to count to make sure there were 12. They had to make a call quickly and saw a guy running off the field who didn't look like he made it. 99% of the time, that guy's the 12th guy. If there was a tv timeout or something that gives you time to count to 12, do so, but if time's tight, make the call on the evidence you see.

    As for why to make the challenge, I think it was more of a tactical call. Less than making it 1st and 5, I think BB was sending a message to Indy that they weren't going to be allowed to make their susbstitutions. I was less concerned about this, though, than the second-thought timeout called. Let them go for it or don't, but stick to your call.
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2008
  15. CheerforTom

    CheerforTom Rookie

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    I agree for the most part, in particular with the idea that the offensive gameplan worked quite well under the circumstances. I'm amused to see people crediting Cassel despite the win when he played essentially the same that he has in past weeks when he was called out by people.

    Your point about Manning is well received (although not by Big Willie :)), but even if they can't sack him they needed to get more pressure on him. There were too many plays last night where he had way too much comfort in the pocket. Pass rush is a very different thing than defending against the run and against a team like the Colts you shouldn't be prioritizing the run.

    The secondary bailed out the pass rush last night which is disappointing to me given the difference in starters and experience.
  16. chrisfx811

    chrisfx811 Rookie

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    The blown calls in Colt's games are getting ridiculous if you ask me, but for as good as the Pats played, the errors made across the board were costly.
    The missed challenge so early puts the Pats in a TO hole which let the refs off the hook on future bad calls/spots. The NFL needs to go the way of college football and have all plays under constant review. What's right is right.

    Gaffney's drop was unbelievable. Thomas's hit was excessive, but it always seems to happen that the guy protecting his teammates gets flagged while the guys who instigate the stuff go unnoticed.

    The secondary seems to be learning. When they blow it, they sure do blow it, but there also getting picked off like flies in the injury dept.

    Merriweather is laying some serious wood out there. I wish we could get Bigby from Green Bay and line up 2 seriously hard hitting safeties. Not to mention Bigby fits the size/role it seems Harrison was being used for this year.

    I'm taking this loss better than usual, as it just seems par for the course that the refs will screw us in Indy, and considering the Colts are getting healthy, while the Pats are mired in an injury quagmire, it gives me hope that things might come together over the next 4 weeks.

    And, btw, Bob Sanders is a clown. He's always jumping on the pile after the play is over, leading with his helmet, etc and one day that crap's going to end his playing career.
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2008
  17. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I'd tend to agree with you on general principle. However, I think it's telling and important to note that:

    A) O'Neal wasn't the starting CB

    B) Wilhite got smoked right off the bat

    C) Richardson saw some real time out there.

    When you look at that and combine it with Wheatley going down, I think you see a secondary that simply couldn't be left exposed man-to-man against a combo of Clark/Wayne/Harrison/Gonzalez. That meant that blitzing would be limited, and it's very difficult to get to Manning without blitzing.
  18. LeonPowe

    LeonPowe Banned

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    15 excuses huh? It doesn't matter how many you make, they should have won this game. They ARE good enough to be an 11-12 win team.

    11-12 wins should be expected, not celebrated, with their talent.
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2008
  19. emoney_33

    emoney_33 Rookie

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    Looks like Wheatley is on the right path and hopefully his injury isn't that bad. A future of Hobbs/Wheatley is exciting.
  20. mac

    mac Rookie

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    The Colts have been running those pick plays for years. Why not switch when picked just like in basketball instead of plowing directly into the picker?
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