"Patriots Arguments don't add up"

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by SVN, Feb 19, 2008.

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  1. SVN

    SVN Hall of Fame Poster

  2. BrianPat

    BrianPat Third String But Playing on Special Teams

    Re: "Patriots Arguments dont add up"

    Why post stupid stories ? Opinions of morons don't interest me !
  3. Pats726

    Pats726 Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

    Re: "Patriots Arguments dont add up"

    Felger's words..."objectively"?? That is a laugh for Mt contrarian..who will always look at the negative.. So what are his arguments for not holding up?? I don't wish to read the stories of Patriot haters...linking on as hits to things that are obviously manure...
  4. pao

    pao Third String But Playing on Special Teams

    Re: "Patriots Arguments dont add up"

    If you break down BB's statement there is much to be desired as far as a denial goes. I think it was full of ambiguity cloaked in sincerity. It's good enough for me though, until more info comes out (and IF there is more info it WILL come out).

  5. DefenseRules

    DefenseRules Pro Bowl Player

    #12 Jersey

    Re: "Patriots Arguments dont add up"

    Jeez, it would have been better if they didn't say anything at all. :rolleyes:
  6. upstater1

    upstater1 Pro Bowl Player

    Re: "Patriots Arguments dont add up"

    Uh, that guy can't read. No need to link to him. His brain is addled.
  7. Watson's IQ

    Watson's IQ Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

    Re: "Patriots Arguments dont add up"

    Michael David Smith is an ignorant moron, he's pretty much the sole reason I no longer read Fanhouse. He's just unbearable, and nearly half his stories are anti-Pats drivel. Even Pats haters I know can't stand him.
  8. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Re: "Patriots Arguments dont add up"

    Yup. He's the same nitwit who chose his SB PC to ask BB if in the wake of Rodney getting caught up in an HgH sting in August he had reason to believe any of his other players were using PED's...

    Speaking of Mr. Objectivity, Holley is on a mission today questioning Felgie's logic. Earlier it was how he is disingenuous in criticizing others for not attacking their scheduled guests when in fact he doesn't have the stones to ask Vrabel why he went missing down the stretch...(I believe though the answer to this is knowing how they feel about him already Mike can't risk being assaulted on or off the air...).

    Holley just pointed out to a caller that Felger persists in characterizing Walsh as someone who was promoted in 2002 (because it dovetails with one of his theories that the culture may have led to poor Matt doing something he expected to be rewarded for - taking the initiative to tape something he wasn't even asked to just because the opportunity presented itself and he just assumed his bosses would welcome the data). Holley knows things about this guy, won't spit it out but believe me, he knows because he stated the taping of Pioli wasn't the only reason he was fired, just the last straw for a guy already on thin ice. He was not promoted, he was laterally transferred from one "coaching assistant" position to another, from video to scouting, but he remained essentially a gopher or intern level employee in each division.
  9. Patriotic Fervor

    Patriotic Fervor Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

    Re: "Patriots Arguments dont add up"

    Even the Devil can quote Scripture for his own purposes.

    Breaking down statements does a lot to remove context. That's important.

    I don't think Smith's insights are particularly insightful or important.

    But, hey - that's just me....:D
  10. upstater1

    upstater1 Pro Bowl Player

    Re: "Patriots Arguments dont add up"

    Show us what is ambiguous.

    I have never seen a tape of a walkthrough in my entire coaching career is a pretty definitive statement.

    Here's the actual quote: "I have never authorized, or heard of, or even seen in any way, shape, or form any other team's walkthrough."

    I can't imagine why you believe this is ambiguous. He is saying that not only has he never seen a tape of a walkthrough in his entire career, but that he's never HEARD of another team's walkthrough being discussed in "any way, shape or form."

    I can't imagine a more definitive or absolute statement than that.

    How did you manage it?
  11. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Re: "Patriots Arguments dont add up"

    I don't think there was any ambiguity unless you expend extraordinary effort looking for some based on a pre existing determination to manufacture it.
  12. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

    #12 Jersey

    Re: "Patriots Arguments dont add up"

    It is virtually impossible in the English language to make a statement that is 100% unambiguous - however, yes, you have to go to extraordinary effort on this one; in fact the "not allowed to tape" NFL rule is more ambiguous than this given that it's not completely clear whether the rule states that the usage of the tape is illegal for all games going forward. A reasonable person would say that Belichick interpreted it wrong (intentionally, perhaps) but it is more ambiguous to me that what Belichick said.
  13. Pats726

    Pats726 Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

    Re: "Patriots Arguments dont add up"

    I have been listening as well..the Patriot haters are out there and I think we know who they are...whether local or national...
  14. 363839

    363839 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Re: "Patriots Arguments dont add up"

    Just like his injury reports.:D:bricks:
  15. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    #12 Jersey

    Re: "Patriots Arguments dont add up"

    This article makes no sense. So based on this guys opinion, Pioli opened himself and the Patriots up to a major defamation/slander lawsuit by claiming Walsh taped conversations when he didn't to deflect blame from the Patriots if Walsh does have a tape of a walththrough. Don't you think Pioli consulted a lawyer to see what he can and can't say about Walsh's termination before he spoke to Mike Reiss? So this guy thinks that Pioli delibrately opened up the Patriots to a potential million dollar plus lawsuit to avoid more sanctions by the league?

    Also, his argument to disprove that Belichick really thinks that information from walkthroughs are not that substantial is weak at best. He uses a quote from Mike Martz to prove his point. Except the quote from Mike Martz doesn't actually speak to the information gained from the walkthrough just that he feels that if the Pats actually had someone filming the walkthrough it is a serious allegation. I see that as two different things. He may feel that it is serious allegation that the Pats were spying eventhough he feels that they wouldn't have gained anything from their efforts. If this is the best he has to dispute Belichick's argument, he hasn't done much to prove his point.

    I also think his remedies are bogus. He is suggesting Walsh get interviewed on TV by someone giving him softball questions and wait for the Pats to undermine his credibility of what he said? Well, it is good to see that this guy has decided to believe everything Walsh has to say without knowing how credible he really is or even what he has to say.

    His wishful thinking that the alleged tape of the walkthrough will magically show up on YouTube seven years after it was allegedly filmed and six months after Spygate broke is way out there.
  16. pao

    pao Third String But Playing on Special Teams

    Re: "Patriots Arguments dont add up"

    Does anyone have the entire text of his and Pioli's statement? I have only seen partial quotes and, to me, they look ambiguous. Please post a link to the entire quote and I will respond. Briefly what I would like to have seen was something like "The Patriots as an organisation has not in any way been a party to the filming of any practice, walkthrough, or any other activity prohibited by rule or law of the NFL nor have we gained any competitive advantage in any way by any such activity." Like I said, their statement is good enough for me as a fan. But for the good of the organisation and the NFL I feel he could have done better. Just look around at those that are questioning it and you would have to agree that he could have done better. These guys have publicity departments for goodness sake and it took forever for them to make any definitive statement. They could have done alot better imo.

  17. upstater1

    upstater1 Pro Bowl Player

    Re: "Patriots Arguments dont add up"

    Your quote is ambiguous. Why add the line we haven't gained advanatge.

    Then people will wonder, did they tape, but gained no advantage?

    Plus they couldn't even say your quote because they have already admitted to taping during games.

    I think you just proved that no matter how absolutist you think your statement is, the haters will always try to find something to nitpick.

    Plus, added to that, this isn't a case of a legal argument. Belichick is in no danger in terms of criminal law. He doesn't need to make claims about what the meaning of "is is." In the end, Goodell will rule. No amount of verbal gamesmanship would save Belichick in this case.

    And lastly, do you honestly think that someone in the organization would have taped a walkthrough without Belichick's knowing about it at all? If someone had taped a walkthrough without permission, it would have come to Belichick's attention. if someone had taped a walkthrough with Belichick's permission, nothing more needs to be said. Belichick said that he had never HEARD of anyone referring to another team's walkthrough in all his years of coaching.
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2008
  18. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Re: "Patriots Arguments dont add up"

    Here you go:

    Belichick said:

    "In my entire coaching career, I've never seen another team's practice film prior to playing that team," he said. "I have never authorized, or heard of, or even seen in any way, shape, or form any other team's walkthrough. We don't even film our own. We don't even want to see ourselves do anything, that's the pace that it's at. Regardless, I've never been a part of that."

    Belichick added that in his "entire coaching career, I have never filmed a walkthrough, our own. I've never been on a staff that has filmed a walkthrough. I'm talking about when I was a head coach. As an assistant, I've never seen a head coach film a walkthrough the day before a game."

    Belichick further detailed his interpretation of the NFL's taping rules from the league's Constitution & Bylaws (article 9) and scoffed at a "Spygate" reference yesterday because what the team taped was in view to everyone.

    The rule states: "Any use by any club at any time, from the start to the finish of any game in which such club is a participant, of any communications or information-gathering equipment, other than Polaroid-type cameras or field telephones, shall be prohibited, including without limitation videotape machines, telephone tapping, or bugging devices, or any other form of electronic devices that might aid a team during the playing of a game."

    Belichick felt the Patriots' actions were in compliance with NFL rules, saying, "My interpretation was that you can't utilize anything to assist you during that game. What our camera guys do is clearly not allowed to be used during the game and has never been used during that game that it was shot."

    At the time the Patriots were fined during the season, it was theorized coaches were utilizing the film of opposing signals to make halftime adjustments. Belichick said that was "never, never" the case.

    He described the impact of the tapes as "minimal" to the Patriots' preparations, rating it a "one" on a scale of 1 to 100.

    "On the tape of the signaling that we talk about, that film usually wasn't even completed until Thursday or Friday of the following week. It was that low of a priority," he said. "In other words, the video guys had so much other stuff to do on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday getting ready for the other game, that a lot of times that film wasn't even processed until later in the week."

    Asked, then, why the Patriots conducted the taping, he responded by saying: "Why do anything? Why study tendencies? Why study stances?"

    In the NFL, it is commonplace for scouts to attend games of future opponents and study signals. Detailed records are kept of those signals, including which coach is delivering them.

    The Patriots' videotaping of signals was deemed to cross the line, which Belichick apologized for yesterday.

    "I respect the integrity of the game and always have and always will," he said. "I regret that any of this, or to whatever extent it has in any way brought that into question or discussion or debate. The decision was made by the commissioner, the practice was immediately stopped, and we're not doing it.

    "Just going back over the whole taping incident, if I contacted the league and asked them about the practice, I'm sure they would have told me - as they have done - that it is not permissible. Then I could have avoided all of this.

    "I take responsibility for it," he continued. "Even though I felt there was a gray area in the rule and I misinterpreted the rule, that was my mistake and we've been penalized for it. I apologize to everybody that is involved - the league, the other teams, the fans, our team, for the amount of conversation and dialogue that it's caused.

    "I misinterpreted the rule. The commissioner made his ruling and we've been penalized for it and tried to move on."

    Belichick explained why he felt yesterday was the right time to address the issue, and not during the season when it happened.

    "I wasn't comfortable talking about it earlier in the year because my No. 1 job is to win football games," he said. "The more distractions there are, I think the harder it is to prepare. I thought the more conversation about this would just take away from what my primary job and our primary job is, which is to win football games.

    "I felt like now, the season has been over for a couple weeks, there are certainly a lot of questions out there about it, I thought this would be the timely point to address it as opposed to during the season, at any point. Of course, it came up a number of times."

    Pioli said:

    Pioli said Walsh was terminated in January 2003 after he discovered Walsh was "secretly tape-recording conversations between him and me." Pioli said he learned of the recording because "two other employees saw him doing it, and I checked after, and heard it on the tape myself."

    In the days leading up to this year's Super Bowl, Walsh's potential role in the taping became a hot topic. Yesterday, Pioli detailed the work Walsh did in the personnel department.

    "He had come from video, so the first few months his job was to make highlight tapes of draft-eligible players, guys who were going to be free agents," he said. "It's like the entry-level position that we have all the scouting assistants in. It's essentially the same job that I did 15 years ago, which was making copies, picking people up at the airport, data entry, more of the highlight tapes of the players, the draft-eligible guys."

    Pioli said reports that indicated Walsh was an "area scout" were incorrect.

    Their relationship ended abruptly, according to Pioli.

    "The job he was doing, there were two other guys doing it, so essentially the work he was doing wasn't up to the same level as the other people, in my opinion. However, I found out he was secretly tape recording our conversations and he was fired," he said.

    Asked if he confronted Walsh for an explanation, Pioli said: "There was never a confrontation. He was just released."

  19. PatsFanJess

    PatsFanJess Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

    #91 Jersey

    Re: "Patriots Arguments dont add up"

    This guy is obviously biased and its a waste of time reading his garbage. My favorite part of this article was this:

    "Belichick added that in his "entire coaching career, I have never filmed a walkthrough, our own. I've never been on a staff that has filmed a walkthrough. I'm talking about when I was a head coach. As an assistant, I've never seen a head coach film a walkthrough the day before a game."

    Those comments weren't just a denial; they were also an attempt to shape the public opinion of what a walkthrough practice is: If Belichick can convince people that walkthroughs just aren't important enough to bother with, he can say that even if Walsh does produce a tape of the Rams' walkthrough, that it wasn't a big deal."

    SHAPE PUBLIC OPINION!!! Oh wait, you mean informing the public to the TRUTH is your problem! Of course what you do,which is shape public opinion based on your biased and false assumptions that you turn into facts...is obviously the right way to "shape public opinion". Maybe I just skimmed this piece of trash too quickly and I didnt pick up on where he brought up ANYTHING on how crappy Matt Walsh's credibility is. Obviously if your gonna take sides with someone, dont you think you would investigate their background?? Matt Walsh has lied about half the things on his resume and you turn BB in SP into the lying scheming villians?? Ummm...what??? Where are the questions about Walsh in here? Guess this is why journalists prefer fiction to reality.
  20. pao

    pao Third String But Playing on Special Teams

    Re: "Patriots Arguments dont add up"

    Nope, it's not ambiguous.
    Because then if Walsh produces a tape you can argue that even though a tape was made the ORGANISATION as a whole never saw it and didn't gain a competitive advantage from it.

    I threw that together in two seconds. You're telling me the Pats Publicity dept couldn't have fixed that in the month since this was first announced. Come on.

    I still like mine better. But like I said, I accept BB's comments, there are alot of people that haven't.

    I'm not saying he does. And the minutae of "legal argument" is bull crap. The Patriots have a publicist of some sort that would write the correct words. And still, I believe my statement, written in two seconds, would have been better for him.
    Dude, I'm not looking for "verbal gamesmanship"! Especially since he is innocent, or so I believe. There is no need for verbal gamesmanship if he is innocent. HIS statement is too easily seen as verbal gamenanship though.
    Wow! Do you really believe this? So if Walsh shows up with a tape BB knew about it? Or should have? Man, you better HOPE that Walsh has NOTHING. I believe there is a possibility that Walsh made a tape and the Patriots organisation didn't know it (and even if they did they certainly won't admit it!). That is why I put in the statement that they never gained a competitive advantage from any such activity. That way if Walsh DOES have a tape you can say he did it on his own and we did not benefit from it.
    He was absolute about that though. He never gave his permission. Doesn't mean someone in the organisation didn't though. That's my point. He could easily have said no one in this organisation gave their permission. Look, the Patriots are catching flak for the statement. They could have done better. It's enough for me AND for most Patriot fans but there are others out there that could have been swayed by a better statement. You can say all you want that you don't give a dam what other think but I do. Especially since it would have been so easy.

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