patriots are terrible at drafting wr

[RobertWeathers]

because it is

We don't need to replace LaFell with a Super Bowl receiver to win the Super Bowl. If we can, fine. There are better uses for our cap money.

Now you just need to stop it right there. Logic and reason have no place on this board.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Just a guess, but I wonder if the Patriots difficulty in drafting wide receivers isn't related to the personality profile of many of the top players at that position - egotistical prima donnas who are not the low-key, self effacing players that Belichick likes.

I think that is part of it, sure. BB would rather deal with the high-upside guy and not the high-strung, high-maintenance guy.

The last very good wide receiver that the Patriots drafted was Terry Glenn. He was pre-Belichick and did not last long in the Belichick era.

Yea Terry always *****ed about not getting the ball enough. That got old around BB and would have eventually with Tom. Glenn was a weird dude. Interesting how he always produced for the toughest SOB around in Tuna.

Nor does Irving Fryar fit the mold, though he had a long NFL career. He was the number one overall pick in 1984, but missed the 1986 AFC Championship because he was wounded in knife fight with his wife, later was arrested on a weapons charge, and was recently found guilty of mortgage fraud.

Fryar had demons and coke problems. He tries to choke his pregnant wife to death and in defending herself slices his thumb in 1/2. Then he slams his car at an intersection after doing 8 balls in the stadium parking lot while a freaking game was still going on. Then he threatens to wack everyone who was foot stomping on Hart Lee Dykes on a fight HE started over a supposed coke deal.

 

[TBR]

Looking at another angle, here are the picks in the top 3 rounds, where a team is most likely to get players:

2007 - 1 defense, 0 offense
2008 - 3 defense, 0 offense
2009 - 4 defense, 2 offense
2010 - 3 defense, 2 offense
2011 - 1 defense, 2 offense, 1 QB (A frickin' QB drafted in the top 3 rounds in 2011)
2012 - 4 defense, 0 offense
2013 - 3 defense, 1 offense
2014 - 1 defense, 1 offense, 1 QB
2015 - 3 defense, 0 offense
Total high pick investments, 2007 - 2015: 23 defense, 8 offense, 2 QBs

They've relied a bit too much on 2 main guys for the offense: Scarnecchia and Brady.

Hoping Scar could turn a bunch of late-rounders & UDFAs into solid starters, while Brady finds a way to lead a top 5 offense, mostly with a bunch of low-risk signings/trades (and lately without a running game).

 

[Deus Irae]

because it is

No, it's not. History has demonstrated that year, after year, and Brady's getting older, not entering his prime. Unless you're expecting another freakin' miracle like last year, the team needs to fix the problem.

We don't need to replace LaFell with a Super Bowl (pro-bowl) receiver to win the Super Bowl. If we can, fine. There are better uses for our cap money.

And where did I say it had to be a Pro Bowl receiver?

 

[Deus Irae]

They've relied a bit too much on 2 main guys for the offense: Scarnecchia and Brady.

Hoping Scar could turn a bunch of late-rounders & UDFAs into solid starters, while Brady finds a way to lead a top 5 offense, mostly with a bunch of low-risk signings/trades (and lately without a running game).

Absolutely. And Scar's gone, while Brady ages. Let's hope BB the GM can pull some rabbits out of hats this offseason.

 

[aluminum seats]

Some good back & forth here, but I think on balance I'm more in the camp that thinks the efforts regarding offensive personnel have been inadequate.

Player acquisition/drafting is always going to be hit & miss, but you can maximize the percentages through investment. Defensively, sure, they struck gold with Butler, great. But the defense is littered with first round picks who, hey whaddya know, are really good players.

Offensively, as @TBR points out, it's been the brilliance of Brady + next-level O-line coaching + let's hope something sticks. They saw something in Sanders? Then go get the guy, don't make a little borderline attempt, serving to simultaneously not get the player while flagging him as someone worthwhile (not saying Denver wouldn't have pursued anyway, but between Sanders, Talib, etc., let's just say having the Pats interested in you doesn't dissuade Elway from taking a look.)

Yeah, Lloyd was OK, nearly 1000 yards. LaFell was OK. But with these guys, you're walking this tightrope of just hoping every...single...thing goes right in order to have them succeed. Last year it did, but it's rare.

The hesitancy with pushing for skill players--particularly wide receivers--is that that's what dumb fans always seem to do. Get the shiny fast guy! It's what Ryan Grigson does. But sometimes it's the right thing to do. Invest in some guys who you don't need everything to be perfect for them to help the team, because their talent is such where they'll just make it happen.

Bill: sucks about the first rounder. Go be a genius. Get a top-notch WR in here next year.

 

[patriot1136]

Might be the wrong thread, but who are the top flight WR in the draft? Off the top of my head it doesn't seem to be a heavy WR draft this year.

 

[BillBelichickFan79]

Losing Hernandez really exposed this problem in my opinion.

When we had him, Gronk, and Welker/Edelman, we could create so many matchup problems and disguise playcalling so well with formation due to being so unpredictable. We could also stretch the seam of the defense better when we had Hernandez due to his speed.

We had three viable options on every pass play. The "outside" receiver was a lot less important in this offense and you could get away with lower quality guys out there since they were only going to get a few balls a game anyway.

Since the loss of Hernandez, the importance of the "outside" receiver has come back into focus. Now after Gronk and Edelman, there's a large drop off to that third option. There's no Moss-like WR on the outside or move TE. The offense has become much more predictable. You know the only two guys you really have to stop are Gronk and Edelman. And when setting a two TE formation with Gronk and Chandler or Hoomanawui is A LOT different than one with Gronk and Hernandez.

It's kind of like the 2009 season when all we really had was Moss and Welker, and no real third option as Galloway flamed out. If you doubled Welker and had long corner with good deep speed run vertically with Moss, we struggled to move the ball.


It has to be frustrating at times for Brady when you look at the outside weapons surrounding a lot of these other quarterbacks over the years. The only top flight one he's ever really had was Moss in 07 and 09.

 

[patriot1136]

Losing Hernandez really exposed this problem in my opinion.

When we had him, Gronk, and Welker/Edelman, we could create so many matchup problems and disguise playcalling so well with formation due to being so unpredictable. We could also stretch the seam of the defense better when we had Hernandez due to his speed.

We had three viable options on every pass play. The "outside" receiver was a lot less important in this offense and you could get away with lower quality guys out there since they were only going to get a few balls a game anyway.

Since the loss of Hernandez, the importance of the "outside" receiver has come back into focus. Now after Gronk and Edelman, there's a large drop off to that third option. There's no Moss-like WR on the outside or move TE. The offense has become much more predictable. You know the only two guys you really have to stop are Gronk and Edelman. And when setting a two TE formation with Gronk and Chandler or Hoomanawui is A LOT different than one with Gronk and Hernandez.

It's kind of like the 2009 season when all we really had was Moss and Welker, and no real third option as Galloway flamed out. If you doubled Welker and had long corner with good deep speed run vertically with Moss, we struggled to move the ball.


It has to be frustrating at times for Brady when you look at the outside weapons surrounding a lot of these other quarterbacks over the years. The only top flight one he's ever really had was Moss in 07 and 09.

Interesting insight. I didn't think about the whole thing with Hernandez. I agree that the offense became much more exposed once he was gone. Our 2 TE set is worthless considering Chandler or Williams is just there to block or run around for the hell of it.

 

[patfanken]

I have to admit that I only read the first page of this whiner thread, and I feel I can predict the next 5 without having to bother. I've been reading this crap for a decade now and it STILL has no value. Would haves and could haves abound here.. WTF. I thought we were a smart fan base. I thought we have ascended from the average who buy all the media hype that WR's make offenses, when EVERY factor we see every year tells us the exact opposite.

How many NFCCG's has Julio Jones helped the Falcons to during his tenure. Hell, how many seasons in the playoffs.....and he IS a great WR. How many has Calvin Johnson been to....and both those guys play with pretty good QB's. The list can go on and on of great WR's who DON'T effect wins and losses nearly as much as the mediots would like us to believe.

YES, the Pats have had terrible luck drafting WR's in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. But tell me this. How is it that over the last 8 years, the Pats are usually in the top 5 in passing offense almost every year. Who the F has Brady been throwing to all these years.....phantoms.

And even if Bill decided to take a shot at a first round WR rolleyes ....and even if he was lucky enough that THAT guy was one of the 50% that turn out to be decent.....how much difference is that guy going to make within our offense.

Let us not forget that our offensive scheme is fairly unique in the NFL. Dez Bryant is a beast. One of the best WR's in the league. But he didn't come into the league as one. Does anyone REALLY think Dez Bryant was the right pick for us that year. Do you really think he was prepared at that time to absorb this offense to the level necessary? Do you think he is now?

The day that any of these WR threads will make sense will be the day that our passing attack is in the bottom half of the league and NOT in the top 5. THAT is the day that there really will be a problem. Until that day comes I will hope that our fan base will become a little more sophisticated and eruadite and stop looking at every good looking WR prospect like he is the answer to all our prayers and will solve all problems. The fact is that great WR's come and go in this league and the ONE thing they have in common is that where they wind up does NOT determine where a championship is going.

BTW- if the Panthers win on Sunday, then they will become another in a LONG line of Superbowl winners who "somehow" managed to win a Lombardi WITHOUT a so called elite WR.

DISCLAIMERS - 1. None of this post means that the staff here shouldn't be doing their best to keep on upgrading the WR position for the team. That should be the goal at every position. Every position is important. It is just that some positions are more important and WR isn't one of them.

2. If anyone wrote a similar opinion, they have my apologies for being redundant. But finding the next great WR is NOT going to put us over the top. It wouldn't have made a difference in the Denver game.


Rant over.

 

[FreeTedWilliams]

First Off, steal Randy Fitchner (the Steelers old WR coach, now QB coach). The guy developed Santonio Homes, Mike Wallace, Emanual Sanders, and Antonio Brown.

It can't be pure coincidence that the Steelers keep coming up with great WR. I think we all saw in Denver, what happens when you lose a great position coach.

The pats have had much more success (if you can call it that) signing WR already in the NFL than drafting them. I would try and get Megatron, maybe Alshawn Jeffries, other than that, not much on the FA scene.

Imagine if the Pats just batted .333 with their DB and WR picks in rounds 2-3 over the last ten years?

 

[Deus Irae]

I have to admit that I only read the first page of this whiner thread, and I feel I can predict the next 5 without having to bother. I've been reading this crap for a decade now and it STILL has no value.

You've been reading this for a decade now, and you still keep getting it wrong.

 

[hovis]

Is it too late to join the annual "We Need A Deep Threat" thread?

 

[patfanken]

You've been reading this for a decade now, and you still keep getting it wrong.

And you keep ignoring that we have had one of the best pass offenses in the league year after year despite our draft woes at WR.

Which would you rather have, an all pro WR, or a top 5 pass offense. You do NOT have to have one to have the other

 

[Deus Irae]

And you keep ignoring that we have had one of the best pass offenses in the league year after year despite our draft woes at WR.

I don't ignore it at all. You act as if that excuses the failure. I don't, and BB clearly doesn't either.

 

[BradyFTW!]

And even if Bill decided to take a shot at a first round WR rolleyes ....and even if he was lucky enough that THAT guy was one of the 50% that turn out to be decent.....how much difference is that guy going to make within our offense.

... a pretty big one. Look, I'm with you up to this point. As great a player as Julio Jones is, it would not have been in the Pats' interest to make the trade that the Falcons made to get him. Too much investment, too much uncertainty.

You're right there; I'm a firm believer that for WRs you're better off taking shots at 2nd-4th round talent that's typically there. It's a crapshoot because WRs are hard to project, but you can find guys like Jordan Matthews, Allen Robinson, Jarvis Landry, Donte Moncrief, Martavis Bryant, Keenan Allen, Alshon Jeffery, TY Hilton, and Randall Cobb in that range (and that's just since 2011). I have no objection to where the Pats are picking WRs, they just haven't picked a good one yet.

But to then say that even if the Pats did have a Julio Jones it wouldn't significantly improve the offense? Sorry Ken, I respect you a lot as a poster, but that's just crazy talk. This offense would be unstoppable with an elite outside receiver. We don't have one because they're hard to find, hard to develop (especially when you're never picking in the top 25), and can command a king's ransom from stupid teams in FA. Not because they don't dramatically improve an offense. Look at what Moss did for the offense in 2007, and conversely look at what losing Jordy Nelson did to the Packers' offense this year.

Not wanting to commit $15M per year against the cap to AJ Green, Julio Jones, Demaryius Thomas or Dez Bryant is reasonable. Claiming that they don't help an offense that much anyways is not.

 

[Deus Irae]

But to then say that even if the Pats did have a Julio Jones it wouldn't significantly improve the offense? Sorry Ken, I respect you a lot as a poster, but that's just crazy talk. This offense would be unstoppable with an elite outside receiver.

The Patriots have had one season of healthy Brady + high end middle-deep threat. They went 18-1 that year, and probably would have gone 19-0 if Brady hadn't had his ankle sprain, or if one of about a half-dozen 50/50 type plays had broken differently. I don't understand why people are so quick to disregard that.

 

[aluminum seats]

I have to admit that I only read the first page of this whiner thread, and I feel I can predict the next 5 without having to bother.

I notice that you say this a lot--several page thread that you don't take the time to read. I understand you like to write, but there's value in reading what others have to say too.

will hope that our fan base will become a little more sophisticated and eruadite and stop looking at every good looking WR prospect like he is the answer to all our prayers and will solve all problems.

I don't think anyone is doing that. In fact, in my post that you didn't read I noted that the reflex can be to not focus on wide receivers because it can seem unsophisticated. But in reality, it's not. It can and should be an important component to a successful team.

But finding the next great WR is NOT going to put us over the top. It wouldn't have made a difference in the Denver game.

Actually, it could have well made the difference between winning and losing. Apart from that, maybe not so much.

 

[Tom meets Kaepernick]

When people bring up that we have a top 5 passing game every year, are they forgetting that TFB is the main driving force behind that? Let's not act like any other quarterback could come in and do what Brady is doing. We need to get better at drafting and evaluating receivers.

If we still have a top 5 offense after Brady retires, then you might have an argument for WR's not being worth it and more of an importance on the system. "MIGHT" being the key word.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[DaBruinz]

Welker figured it out
Moss figured it out
Gaffney figured it out
Branch figured it out
Givens figured it out
Edelman figured it out

We've gotten a full cross section over time. 'Rookies', veterans, physical specimens, midgets, etc...

The players are out there. When you're making choices like Jackson over Jennings, Dobson over Allen, Boyce over Wheaton, etc..., you're going to suffer for it.

Please provide the proof that Jennings, Allen or Wheaton would have worked in the Pats system..