Patriots are becoming too arrogant

[Jacky Roberts]

Whooooa now, Jacky. I hope you didnt label the WR's as CFL players. They certainly arent world beaters but they certainly arent near being CFL players who are just crappy players who couldnt make it to the NFL. I think this is trust in Brady as the best QB in the league. Listen the whole team needs to be solid which it is and is definitley a possible canidate for the SB. The WR's arent the best you'll find, they are all average-decent players. But if one QB can still get alone pretty well with such recievers that he hasnt even gotten to know completely on the field yet, I'm sure its Brady because I dont even see Peyton Manning playing half as well as Brady if he had this recieving corps. So give it a break. Brady is doing fine and will get better and better with his recievers as the season goes on. We arent looking at the past games Jacky, this team seems to be bouncing back when we destroyed the Bengals. Everyone is playing better. The Bills, Jets and Broncos games are history, give this team a freaking break. They are one of the top 5 teams in the league.

Division champs is a given, but that's about it for these guys this year.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

But what the hell do I know? I am just a descendent of a Nazi sympathizing Dictator.

Ah, one of the Kennedy clan, that would explain a lot.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

Lets See they win two SuperBowls with Smith and then upgraded the position with Dillon.

They won a Superbowl with Lawyer Milloy, but then signed Harrison!

They won a SuperBowl with Vrabel and Willie, but then signed Rosie!

They won a SuperBowl with Gay, but drafted Hobbs.

They won a SuperBowl with....Should I keep going? Because we haven't talked about the Line or Maroney!

What you confuse for Arrogance is simply the Patriots being patient and only pulling the trigger on deals that are in the best interest of the New England Patriots organization. They look to upgrade every position, but only if it makes sense and they also identify what is the bare minimum they believe they can win with at a each position. Is it an exact science? No, but it has produced 3 out the last 5 SuperBowls. What they don't do is just arbitrarily jump on every big name hoping he is better than what they have.

What I find arrogant is that some people on this board feel they know more about running an NFL franchise than BB and Pioli, the best in the business.

It is a little sad to see Pats fans actually blaming the front office like the general media does. Wake up, Jacky. The only thing that we are suffering from is the fact that players are trying to leave town to get paid one helluva lot more than they will ever be WORTH. Nothing can be done about that.

The amount of miscalculations in our F.O. is less than anywhere else in the league currently. And they aren't arrogant, they are calm and calculated and businesslike in their decisions.

You can't have EVERYTHING in life, get used to it.

 

[Jacky Roberts]

It is a little sad to see Pats fans actually blaming the front office like the general media does. Wake up, Jacky. The only thing that we are suffering from is the fact that players are trying to leave town to get paid one helluva lot more than they will ever be WORTH. Nothing can be done about that.

The amount of miscalculations in our F.O. is less than anywhere else in the league currently. And they aren't arrogant, they are calm and calculated and businesslike in their decisions.

You can't have EVERYTHING in life, get used to it.

Good offseason moves:

- Letting Givens walk
- Letting McGinest walk
- Signing Junior Seau
- Trading for Doug Gabriel

Bad offseason moves:

- Not signing Branch
- Letting Vinatieri walk (not franchising him).
- Signing Reche Caldwell

To me, the bad moves outweigh the good moves right now. Maybe next year the extra picks will help win Super Bowl XLII or XLIII, but it seems they've given Brady no chance to win XLI.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

Good offseason moves:

- Letting Givens walk
- Letting McGinest walk
- Signing Junior Seau
- Trading for Doug Gabriel

Bad offseason moves:

- Not signing Branch
- Letting Vinatieri walk (not franchising him).
- Signing Reche Caldwell

To me, the bad moves outweigh the good moves right now. Maybe next year the extra picks will help win Super Bowl XLII or XLIII, but it seems they've given Brady no chance to win XLI.

I think you really are defining the 'sky is falling' thing that people around here keep bringing up.

Why don't you just let the season unfold and see how we do towards the play-offs. I think this team could get better or worse, depending on a ton of factors, but I doubt we will be the same team as we are now.

Climb off the ledge. We might be a damn good team when the playoffs get here.

 

[edgecy]

Hrm. Arizona went out and made a splash on a huge signing and look what that got them last night. Big name does not translate into big success on the field. Moss is about as big as you can get in WR, but that doesn't mean anything. I am glad BB is in charge and not you because I'd hate to see us become Redskins 2.0.

 

[The Gr8est]

Some people should realize they are incapable of watching and appreciating the Patriots, it is just against their nature. For these people I would recommend finding another team like Washington, Dallas, or Indy, those are teams which make splashy signings and/ or have sizzle.

If you're the kind of person who would rather see your team win two blowouts while losing one, than to see your team win three straight games with total points under 30 while leaving points on the field in the interests of killing the clock, well then the Pats are probably not for you.

Save yourselves the aggravation from having to endure watching boring, arrogant SB winners (and us from the aggravation of having to endure your ill-informed whining), and take your allegiance, and posts elsewhere.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Good offseason moves:

- Letting Givens walk
- Letting McGinest walk
- Signing Junior Seau
- Trading for Doug Gabriel

Bad offseason moves:

- Not signing Branch
- Letting Vinatieri walk (not franchising him).
- Signing Reche Caldwell

To me, the bad moves outweigh the good moves right now. Maybe next year the extra picks will help win Super Bowl XLII or XLIII, but it seems they've given Brady no chance to win XLI.

Good offseason moves based on performance/value to date:

- Letting Givens walk - poor production in a chaotic system.
- Letting McGinest walk - ditto.
- Signing Junior Seau - getting better each week.
- Trading for Doug Gabriel - flashes of improved communications with Tommy.
- Not signing Branch - 1st round pick and Gabriel is matching his performance.
- Letting Vinatieri walk (not franchising him). - Gramatica is da man! I kinda like the field position performance this season.
- Signing Reche Caldwell - One of Tommy's critical down "go to" guys, impressive blocking against linebackers - a useful skill on a run-based offence.

Cool list Jacky, thanks for the perspective. Go Pats!

 

[jimleehunt]

jacky- no offense,man, but your nfl acumen is amazingly lacking. The pats have ONE, count em, ONE current weak spot on their team-wr. after k,p and fb-wr is the LEAST important unit of an nfl team. but,yes, it is STILL IMPORTANT. how long have you watched nfl football? do you really think the pats wr output will not change over the course of the season? how much time has jackson even had with brady to develop any chemistry? his hamstring will heal. the pats have an easy sked,in a weak division. that means they can treat the rest of the reg. season as a glorified training camp/preseason, to get jackson healthy and have him and gabriel get in synch with brady. in the entire bb era-the pats have made only ONE mistake-letting branch go. but you cant even necessarily blame the pats for that-bb expected branch to sign-right down to last minute. but damnn,buddy-look at all the incredible heists,steals,awesome draft picks,etc the pats have made over the past 6 years-i would say the pats are maybe the LEAST arrogant team. jackson is faster and bigger tah branch. he should turn out to be a better legit deep threat than deion. will he be as good of a wr? i dont know. but its way too early to judge. we saw what hes capable of doing when healthy vs. the jets. by dec. jackson/gabriel could be the best wr tandem brady ever had. theyre both faster tahn both branch & givens. theyre both likely to be much better in the red zone, given their height. the pats team AS IS, right now-even with NO improvement at wr-is MUCH better than last years team. the pats willl develop at wr THIS season-without changing any personnel-just let these guys play some. yopur post is so similar to so many posts ive seen EVERY year,early in the season.(icl. ALL 3 SB-winning seasons). you guys never learn. nobody knows anything concrete until december. the last few years, all we heard was the chicken littles yelling" we need, big,tall wrs!" well we GOT em.

 

[RayClay]

Good offseason moves based on performance/value to date:

- Letting Givens walk - poor production in a chaotic system.
- Letting McGinest walk - ditto.
- Signing Junior Seau - getting better each week.
- Trading for Doug Gabriel - flashes of improved communications with Tommy.
- Not signing Branch - 1st round pick and Gabriel is matching his performance.
- Letting Vinatieri walk (not franchising him). - Gramatica is da man! I kinda like the field position performance this season.
- Signing Reche Caldwell - One of Tommy's critical down "go to" guys, impressive blocking against linebackers - a useful skill on a run-based offence.

Cool list Jacky, thanks for the perspective. Go Pats!

Keeping all the draft picks and getting more for all the overpriced free agent we haven't signed? Allowed us to trade up for the equivalent of 2 #1's on offense. (Jackson was a high #2 we traded because of extra picks).

Reche cost us nothing. I think he looks pretty good as a 3-4 receiver.

Catches the ball and he's tough. If he gets comfortable, you might want to go back and compare his "40" time. Pretty good for a 3-4 receiver I'd say.

 

[mgcolby]

Lets look at our starting offense from SB 39 and who replaced them with an upgrade/downgrade rating:

Givens, David WR - Replaced by Caldwell/Jackson -(for now) downgrade
Light, Matt LT - still here
Andruzzi, Joe LG - Replaced by Mankins - upgrade
Koppen, Dan C - Still here
Neal, Steve RG - Still here
Gorin, Brandon RT - O'callaghan - upgrade
Graham, Daniel TE - still here this would be Watson - Upgrade
Branch, Deion WR - Gabriel - (for Now) downgrade
Brady, Tom QB - Still here
Dillon, Corey RB - Still here
Pass, Patrick FB - Still here but this would be Graham - Upgrade

5 starter's have changed and 3 for the better. RT is better simply because of the overall depth on the line. Pass is still with the team on the PUP. The only place they are feeling the pinch is at WR and no one knows how that will end up.

Now lets look at the defense:

Seymour, Richard DE - Still here
Wilfork, Vince NT - Still here
Green, Jarvis DE - Still here - replaced by Warren - Upgrade
McGinest, Willie OLB - Replaced by Colvin - due to age - Upgrade
Bruschi, Tedy ILB - Still here
Johnson, Ted ILB - Replaced by Seau - downgrade against the run
Vrabel, Mike OLB - Still here
Gay, Randall LCB - Still here - Replaced by Hobbs - Upgrade
Samuel, Asante RCB - Still here
Harrison, Rodney SS - Still here
Wilson, Eugene FS - Still here

Two starters from SB 39 are gone one to retirement and one left via FA and was not going to start this season. Two starters from that defense have become depth at their position.

Six starters out of the 22 are no longer with this team and the only two that can be considered a downgrade are the wide receivers. This team has added depth at every position except for LB and as a whole they have become a better team. The WR corps is a work in progress that should continue to get better each week. Reche has been decent, Gabriel has shown the ability to get open and catch the balls thrown to him and Brown is his trusty old self. Jackson and Gaffney are the two enigma's at this point and a healthy Jackson will hopefully be a solid number 2 WR option this season.

Key departures from ST:

AV
Matt
??

I am sure I am missing some others as well.

Does anyone think that the veteran's suddenly forgot what it takes to win?
I don't understand how people don't feel that this is a better team than the 2004 Pats. The only arguments that make sense to me are:

The rookie kicker argument: I agree it has to be a concern until Gost proves he can kick the game winner in the playoffs. Fortunately with the potential of this offense and the way the defense has been playing we shouldn't have to find out.

WR argument: Nobody knows how this will end up, so it is a mute point at this moment.

LB depth: The most valid argument of the three and if one of our starters gets injured then we get into the great unknown. Tully to the outside and Vrabel or ??? into the middle with a lot of inexperienced depth behind them.

They are deeper at both lines, RB, TE and DB. I believe their is more talent at WR just not the chemistry and proven playoff experience.

Overall this team is as good as any team in the NFL and they have yet to get their passing game together. When/if it does this team will be nearly unstoppable.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

jacky- no offense,man, but your nfl acumen is amazingly lacking. The pats have ONE, count em, ONE current weak spot on their team-wr. after k,p and fb-wr is the LEAST important unit of an nfl team. but,yes, it is STILL IMPORTANT. how long have you watched nfl football? do you really think the pats wr output will not change over the course of the season? how much time has jackson even had with brady to develop any chemistry? his hamstring will heal. the pats have an easy sked,in a weak division. that means they can treat the rest of the reg. season as a glorified training camp/preseason, to get jackson healthy and have him and gabriel get in synch with brady. in the entire bb era-the pats have made only ONE mistake-letting branch go. but you cant even necessarily blame the pats for that-bb expected branch to sign-right down to last minute. but damnn,buddy-look at all the incredible heists,steals,awesome draft picks,etc the pats have made over the past 6 years-i would say the pats are maybe the LEAST arrogant team. jackson is faster and bigger tah branch. he should turn out to be a better legit deep threat than deion. will he be as good of a wr? i dont know. but its way too early to judge. we saw what hes capable of doing when healthy vs. the jets. by dec. jackson/gabriel could be the best wr tandem brady ever had. theyre both faster tahn both branch & givens. theyre both likely to be much better in the red zone, given their height. the pats team AS IS, right now-even with NO improvement at wr-is MUCH better than last years team. the pats willl develop at wr THIS season-without changing any personnel-just let these guys play some. yopur post is so similar to so many posts ive seen EVERY year,early in the season.(icl. ALL 3 SB-winning seasons). you guys never learn. nobody knows anything concrete until december. the last few years, all we heard was the chicken littles yelling" we need, big,tall wrs!" well we GOT em.

The reason that I don't care one way or the other about adding Moss to the team is that we do have our tall WRs. If Jackson and Gabriel become good, we still have Brown at #2 and Caldwell and Watson doing slot duty. Even Gaffney has Givens type production. It will be enough for us to win some big games, if the team makes steady progress.

 

[Oswlek]

I think you really are defining the 'sky is falling' thing that people around here keep bringing up.

Why don't you just let the season unfold and see how we do towards the play-offs. I think this team could get better or worse, depending on a ton of factors, but I doubt we will be the same team as we are now.

Climb off the ledge. We might be a damn good team when the playoffs get here.

What people forget is that last year's team was much worse than this year's. The running game was every bit as bad as NE'a pass game has been and the D was the worst in the league for quite some time.

And yet NE was a very good team in the end. Assuming that you start with a higher baseline, wouldn't it make sense that NE will ultimately be better than 2005's final version?

 

[Jacky Roberts]

Hrm. Arizona went out and made a splash on a huge signing and look what that got them last night. Big name does not translate into big success on the field. Moss is about as big as you can get in WR, but that doesn't mean anything. I am glad BB is in charge and not you because I'd hate to see us become Redskins 2.0.

Its one thing to follow the Redskins model and try to acquire a "fantasy team". Its another to look at legitimate holes in your roster and try to address them through trades (especially with a ton of picks and cash in your coffers).

 

[mgcolby]

What people forget is that last year's team was much worse than this year's. The running game was every bit as bad as NE'a pass game has been and the D was the worst in the league for quite some time.

And yet NE was a very good team in the end. Assuming that you start with a higher baseline, wouldn't it make sense that NE will ultimately be better than 2005's final version?

There you go using logic again. What is with you?

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

What people forget is that last year's team was much worse than this year's. The running game was every bit as bad as NE'a pass game has been and the D was the worst in the league for quite some time.

And yet NE was a very good team in the end. Assuming that you start with a higher baseline, wouldn't it make sense that NE will ultimately be better than 2005's final version?

With some good fortune, absolutely!

 

[Jacky Roberts]

jacky- no offense,man, but your nfl acumen is amazingly lacking. The pats have ONE, count em, ONE current weak spot on their team-wr. after k,p and fb-wr is the LEAST important unit of an nfl team. but,yes, it is STILL IMPORTANT. how long have you watched nfl football? do you really think the pats wr output will not change over the course of the season? how much time has jackson even had with brady to develop any chemistry? his hamstring will heal. the pats have an easy sked,in a weak division. that means they can treat the rest of the reg. season as a glorified training camp/preseason, to get jackson healthy and have him and gabriel get in synch with brady. in the entire bb era-the pats have made only ONE mistake-letting branch go. but you cant even necessarily blame the pats for that-bb expected branch to sign-right down to last minute. but damnn,buddy-look at all the incredible heists,steals,awesome draft picks,etc the pats have made over the past 6 years-i would say the pats are maybe the LEAST arrogant team. jackson is faster and bigger tah branch. he should turn out to be a better legit deep threat than deion. will he be as good of a wr? i dont know. but its way too early to judge. we saw what hes capable of doing when healthy vs. the jets. by dec. jackson/gabriel could be the best wr tandem brady ever had. theyre both faster tahn both branch & givens. theyre both likely to be much better in the red zone, given their height. the pats team AS IS, right now-even with NO improvement at wr-is MUCH better than last years team. the pats willl develop at wr THIS season-without changing any personnel-just let these guys play some. yopur post is so similar to so many posts ive seen EVERY year,early in the season.(icl. ALL 3 SB-winning seasons). you guys never learn. nobody knows anything concrete until december. the last few years, all we heard was the chicken littles yelling" we need, big,tall wrs!" well we GOT em.

Jimlee

Here's the deal. You say the Pats are weak in one position (and I agree with you). When you have weak wideouts, it makes your QB worse, puts more pressure/stress on your running backs while requires more stress on the o-line, etc.

Defensively, without a team that can score a lot of points (as teams with weak wideouts tend to be), it means your defense knows that if you can't hold your opponent to less than 21 points, statistically, you will lose a lot of games down the stretch.

My point is your only as good as your weakest link and the weakest link always breaks the chain in football.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Its one thing to follow the Redskins model and try to acquire a "fantasy team". Its another to look at legitimate holes in your roster and try to address them through trades (especially with a ton of picks and cash in your coffers).

What "holes" are you talking about?

WR? Gabriel (Trade), Caldwell (FA Signing), Gaffney (Street FA) Seems like the attempt is there, if you aren't sold on trading for a "name."

LB? Seau (lured out of retirement), Banta-Cain (homegrown and looking darned good), Gardner (Looked good before IR), Vrabel (Cross-trained), Woods (Rookie, impressive start looks to be well ahead of Banta-Cain's learning curve) They even signed a "name" here, how can you be heartbroken with this effort?

QB? True, a major weak spot, but Vinnie has been tested and waits in reserve.

I see your holes and say 'phooey.'

 

[Kdo5]

Good offseason moves:

- Letting Givens walk
- Letting McGinest walk
- Signing Junior Seau
- Trading for Doug Gabriel

Bad offseason moves:

- Not signing Branch
- Letting Vinatieri walk (not franchising him).
- Signing Reche Caldwell

To me, the bad moves outweigh the good moves right now. Maybe next year the extra picks will help win Super Bowl XLII or XLIII, but it seems they've given Brady no chance to win XLI.

Umm...the Patriots wouldnt franchise Vinatieri for the second year in the row because that would have been a slap in the face. No kicker is worth 2 million dollars, none, no kicker. He was already the 1st or 2nd highest paid kicker in the league the last few years. The Patriots offered him a good deal but he simply got a different one. You are wrong we didnt let him "walk". They made an attempt to reisgn him. Same with the Branch situation except Branch didnt want to honor his contract so he was complaining and saying the Pats should rip up the final year of his contract and give him his new 6 million dollar a year deal right away...Whats so bad about signing Caldwell? He hasnt done a whole lot but not many of our recievers have. Brown and Gabriel have done pretty good but still we have like 12 catches max for our top reciecer or something. So they made a good enough effort to resign Vinatieri no matter what people may think. Franchising him would have made him really upset. They did make a contract offer but Branch thought otherwise. We still got a 1st round pick out of him when you'd only expect a 2nd. Wait and watch Jackie, everyone in the recieving corps will improve as the year goes on even if their stats dont show it. What do you know about our chances at a SB Jackie? Sounds like your just pointing out the obvious that many pundits did during the offseason about the demise of the Patriots.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

Its one thing to follow the Redskins model and try to acquire a "fantasy team". Its another to look at legitimate holes in your roster and try to address them through trades (especially with a ton of picks and cash in your coffers).

One of the most odd things to come out of the media and even a couple of our posters here is this notion that the Patriots have been purposefully ignoring some 'magic' trade or 'instant' cure for the WR situation.

Did you miss the part about Al Davis not being willing to make the trade? That has to count for something, no?

Or do we just assume that the Pats F.O. is asleep at the wheel?

To bring in any more guys now is a waste of time, because we have several promising prospects at WR, all of whom need time to get in synch. Piling on some big name trade at this point will simply dilute the reps even further.