Patriots and the Cover 3 Defense

[JDot]

Just reading through that McC thread got me thinking about the Seahawks cover 3 D. For anyone who needs a primer on the Seahawks cover 3, and how it only works with Earl Thomas. Head over to Fieldgulls to get a great break down of the Hawks cover 3 D.

How Earl Thomas and the Seahawks' defense use the Cover-3 - Field Gulls

(Please read this link)

Just going off memory and re watching the Pats D from last year, we where rarely in cover 3 much(I could be mistaken tho). I am just wondering your guys thoughts on if we will see much cover 3 this year. I am not a huge fan of cover 3. B/c it leaves so many passing holes and is a D primarly designed to stop the run. But I just thought in the dead of summer a convo on cover 3 would be fun.

Plus there is a lot of posters who understand D coverage better then I do so why not try to learn something.

 

[Joker]

Read this when you have a few minutes......

The Essential Faces of the New England Patriots Defensive Front | NEPatriotsDraft.com

 

[JDot]

Read this when you have a few minutes......

http://www.nepatriotsdraft.com/2013...the-new-england-patriots-defensive-front.html

Good read. But that is more about the D front. I am more looking to talk about the back end of our D. And how or if we can play a cover 3 D.

Honestly, I just want to to talk about cover 3 D. And learn more about it, to tell you the truth.

 

[Brady6]

How would you run this if you were the Patriots?

Leo – Rob Ninkovich
3-Tech – Tommy Kelly
1-Tech – Vince Wilfork
5-Tech – Chandler Jones
Will – Jamie Collins
Mike – Jerod Mayo
Sam – Donta Hightower
SS – Pat Chung

 

[Brady6]

Another thought if you really wanted to make things interesting with that type of front you could do this (using the Seahawks #s on the diagram) –

91 – Chandler Jones
99 – Tommy Kelly
92 – Vince Wilfork
79 – Dominique Easley
51 – Rob Ninkovich
54 – Jerod Mayo
50 – Donta Hightower
31 – Jamie Collins

 

[Big-T]

The Patriots signed the best man to man coverage corner in the league (and if you factor in the current rules, possibly of all time) using any sort of zone scheme would just be wasting the talents of Revis, like Tampa did last year.

I'm expecting very aggressive press man across the board - make it hard for receivers to even get off the LOS.

Combo coverage with Revis in man everyone else in zone? Sure, it'd be a good change up to have in the arsenal but Revis has to be in man coverage to showcase what he does best.

 

[Joker]

Good read. But that is more about the D front. I am more looking to talk about the back end of our D. And how or if we can play a cover 3 D.

Honestly, I just want to to talk about cover 3 D. And learn more about it, to tell you the truth.

sorry JDot...the page I was trying to link was buried in the archive...here it is...

Breaking Down Split Safety Zone Coverages | Jim Light Football

 

[PP2]

The Patriots signed the best man to man coverage corner in the league (and if you factor in the current rules, possibly of all time) using any sort of zone scheme would just be wasting the talents of Revis, like Tampa did last year.

I'm expecting very aggressive press man across the board - make it hard for receivers to even get off the LOS.

Combo coverage with Revis in man everyone else in zone? Sure, it'd be a good change up to have in the arsenal but Revis has to be in man coverage to showcase what he does best.

BB has shown that he always plays to the players's strengths rather than force fit them into schemes they are ill-suited to playing.

Unless I am missing something, I don't really understand why we would imitate Seattle. BB loves to disguise, Carroll doesn't even bother.

I would not be surprised to see a variation of Buddy Ryan's 46 introduced and its traditional WS overload/man free on SS, featured. One of the major features of the 46 is the bump and run which would incidentally suit Browner/Revis well. IMO, Collins would make a good Charley that can be walked up to the line on runs as he can easily drop. The 46 would be lethal to the short game Manning loves to run.

I could very well be wrong, of course.

 

[JDot]

sorry JDot...the page I was trying to link was buried in the archive...here it is...

http://jimlightfootball.com/2014/01/23/breaking-down-split-safety-zone-coverages/#more-6350

Great link Joker much appreciated.

 

[JDot]

BB has shown that he always plays to the players's strengths rather than force fit them into schemes they are ill-suited to playing.

Unless I am missing something, I don't really understand why we would imitate Seattle. BB loves to disguise, Carroll doesn't even bother.

I would not be surprised to see a variation of Buddy Ryan's 46 introduced and its traditional WS overload/man free on SS, featured. One of the major features of the 46 is the bump and run which would incidentally suit Browner/Revis well. IMO, Collins would make a good Charley that can be walked up to the line on runs as he can easily drop. The 46 would be lethal to the short game Manning loves to run.

I could very well be wrong, of course.

This is not really a thread about a base D being cover 3 like Carrol. This thread is about the Pats using more cover 3 then they have in the past. Which has been minimal at best.

Looking at the players we have.

If Ryan moves to safety we use a lot of cover 2 with split zone safety help(Forgive me if I am screwing these terms up).

But looking at the Chung signing. Keeping him in the box(Collins I think works with cover 3 as well) while using press coverage on the outsides with McC in centre field is a viable cover 3 D.

My post is about using cover 3 more then we had in past. Obviously Bill mixes coverages up, and disguises D more then most. I am just trying to get at if cover 3 can now be thrown in that mix?

Sorry if this is a rambling post.

 

[JDot]

The Patriots signed the best man to man coverage corner in the league (and if you factor in the current rules, possibly of all time) using any sort of zone scheme would just be wasting the talents of Revis, like Tampa did last year.

I'm expecting very aggressive press man across the board - make it hard for receivers to even get off the LOS.

Combo coverage with Revis in man everyone else in zone? Sure, it'd be a good change up to have in the arsenal but Revis has to be in man coverage to showcase what he does best.

This is the type of post I was looking for. Can Revis still not cover the best WR on the field, and us still play cover 3(Obviously if said WR is in the slot we cannot not play cover 3 with Revis on him)?

(Sorry if this is a dumb question)

 

[JDot]

Another thought if you really wanted to make things interesting with that type of front you could do this (using the Seahawks #s on the diagram) –

91 – Chandler Jones
99 – Tommy Kelly
92 – Vince Wilfork
79 – Dominique Easley
51 – Rob Ninkovich
54 – Jerod Mayo
50 – Donta Hightower
31 – Jamie Collins

You have Ninko for Kams spot, if I am reading your post right. I don't think that works.

 

[Deus Irae]

The Patriots signed the best man to man coverage corner in the league (and if you factor in the current rules, possibly of all time) using any sort of zone scheme would just be wasting the talents of Revis, like Tampa did last year.

I'm expecting very aggressive press man across the board - make it hard for receivers to even get off the LOS.

Combo coverage with Revis in man everyone else in zone? Sure, it'd be a good change up to have in the arsenal but Revis has to be in man coverage to showcase what he does best.

It's not just about Revis, either. Dennard, Revis and Browner are all better in man than zone. Interestingly, McCourty's man struggles are why he's back at safety, and Ryan's play last year was much like what McCourty does (better in zone, loses ground when turning hips, etc...). This team's DBs are almost tailor made for full man CB coverage with one deep safety patrolling back and shading to Browner's side, with the other safety roving and/or short-middle safety locking down the dump and go types of plays.

Really, looking at Revis as a slightly better Richard Sherman, Browner as Browner, McCourty as a poor man's Thomas pretty much gives you the Seattle secondary. The big difference is Harmon/Wilson/Chung/Ebner v. Chancellor. In fact, Seattle is a very interesting overall defensive comparison for the the Patriots, IMO.

 

[JDot]

It's not just about Revis, either. Dennard, Revis and Browner are all better in man than zone. Interestingly, McCourty's man struggles are why he's back at safety, and Ryan's play last year was much like what McCourty does (better in zone, loses ground when turning hips, etc...). This team's DBs are almost tailor made for full man CB coverage with one deep safety patrolling back and shading to Browner's side, with the other safety roving and/or short-middle safety locking down the dump and go types of plays.

Really, looking at Revis as a slightly better Richard Sherman, Browner as Browner, McCourty as a poor man's Thomas pretty much gives you the Seattle secondary. The big difference is Harmon/Wilson/Chung/Ebner v. Chancellor. In fact, Seattle is a very interesting overall defensive comparison for the the Patriots, IMO.

I agree with the bulk of your post Deus. But I can't agree with this.

Interestingly, McCourty's man struggles are why he's back at safety,

McC was never bad in man. His second year we played a sh!t ton of soft cover 2 zone. Awful safety play was the culprit to McC decline in year 2. He was moved to safety b/c our safety play was awful.

I am going to try to find a write up on this very subject.

EDIT:You might be right @Deus Irae I can't find what I remembered reading on this issue. And there is no all 22 for that year. I might be talking out my ass. But I am staying firm, it was the soft zone the killed McC. Not Man coverage. Just going off memory from that year.

But I also trust you know what your talking about too.

 

[JDot]

It's not just about Revis, either. Dennard, Revis and Browner are all better in man than zone. Interestingly, McCourty's man struggles are why he's back at safety, and Ryan's play last year was much like what McCourty does (better in zone, loses ground when turning hips, etc...). This team's DBs are almost tailor made for full man CB coverage with one deep safety patrolling back and shading to Browner's side, with the other safety roving and/or short-middle safety locking down the dump and go types of plays.

Really, looking at Revis as a slightly better Richard Sherman, Browner as Browner, McCourty as a poor man's Thomas pretty much gives you the Seattle secondary. The big difference is Harmon/Wilson/Chung/Ebner v. Chancellor. In fact, Seattle is a very interesting overall defensive comparison for the the Patriots, IMO.

Now back to talk of cover 3..

This is what I was getting at. We have all the pieces to have more cover 3 looks this year. But it really comes down to the Kam Chancellor spot. Can Chung/Harmon/Wilson/Ebner play that position in that look? or is Collins the man. If Collins can play the the Chancellor role in cover 3. That opens up a world of disguises and options for the D.

Either way, the Seahawks cover 3 is very interesting.

 

[Deus Irae]

Now back to talk of cover 3..

This is what I was getting at. We have all the pieces to have more cover 3 looks this year. But it really comes down to the Kam Chancellor spot. Can Chung/Harmon/Wilson/Ebner play that position in that look? or is Collins the man. If Collins can play the the Chancellor role in cover 3. That opens up a world of disguises and options for the D.

Either way, the Seahawks cover 3 is very interesting.

Well, it also comes down to the front seven. Seattle was able to use a stable of front 7 players to make up for the lack of any superstar types. NE has Wilfork (if 100%) and Mayo, and Jones is probably a better pure pass rusher than any one the Seahawks have, but the question is going to be about the rest.

Can Collins step it up?
Can Hightower cover well enough to be slid to MLB and be an upgrade over Spikes?
Does the DT rotation have enough depth to keep players rested and survive injuries?
Can Anderson hold up as the LB4/cover LB?
Other than Nink and Jones, is there someone on the outside who can get real, frequent pressure on the QB?

The Colts put up 34 against the Seahawks, showing that even the dreaded Legion of Boom can be gotten to by a good QB who has enough time. Given that time, the high end speed of Ty Hilton was enough to take down Seattle.

 

[Sciz]

The biggest difference between Seattle's cover 3 and what I personally would do with the Pats' personnel is ironically the one common player between the two secondaries. Browner doesn't profile as the kind of guy you'd typically expect to be doing press bail into a deep third, and it showed at times. Ideally, I think the Pats put a safety behind him at all times, knowing that he's going to get beat deep sometimes but that his disruption on most plays should make up for that.

 

[JDot]

The biggest difference between Seattle's cover 3 and what I personally would do with the Pats' personnel is ironically the one common player between the two secondaries. Browner doesn't profile as the kind of guy you'd typically expect to be doing press bail into a deep third, and it showed at times. Ideally, I think the Pats put a safety behind him at all times, knowing that he's going to get beat deep sometimes but that his disruption on most plays should make up for that.

The SeaHawks did what your saying no? Shading Earl toward browner's side while leaving Sherman some what on a island on the other side?

Basically leaving it up to Earl wether to break to Shermans side on instinct, but stay to browners side on scheme(I am not sure that makes sense).

 

[JDot]

Well, it also comes down to the front seven. Seattle was able to use a stable of front 7 players to make up for the lack of any superstar types. NE has Wilfork (if 100%) and Mayo, and Jones is probably a better pure pass rusher than any one the Seahawks have, but the question is going to be about the rest.

Can Collins step it up?
Can Hightower cover well enough to be slid to MLB and be an upgrade over Spikes?
Does the DT rotation have enough depth to keep players rested and survive injuries?
Can Anderson hold up as the LB4/cover LB?
Other than Nink and Jones, is there someone on the outside who can get real, frequent pressure on the QB?

The Colts put up 34 against the Seahawks, showing that even the dreaded Legion of Boom can be gotten to by a good QB who has enough time. Given that time, the high end speed of Ty Hilton was enough to take down Seattle.

Ugh, I tried to play off the front 7 up above. But it is clear you really cannot discuss this D without the front 7. Great points Deus.

 

[Brady6]

You have Ninko for Kams spot, if I am reading your post right. I don't think that works.

No I have Ninkovich for Irvin's spot.