Patriot Type 3-4 DE's

[Fencer]

NFL Draft Scout----Powered By: The Sports Xchange

Christian Ballard played for Kirk Ferentz, lining up at various positions uncomplainingly. Hard worker. Durable. Defeats double teams. Needs work on his technique. 6'4" 298

 

[jays52]

I'm sorry but you contradicted yourself, Dareus cannot have a lack of "length" while being the same height as Brace, in fact one of the things height does is give you a high center of gravity, making it a lot harder to push someone or keep from being pushed. Being shorter and heavier makes that player harder to move, so Dareus being a similar weight and shorter gives him an advantage over a taller player.

If you look you'll find examples of guys successfully playing 3-4 DE that don't fit into your height/weight mold. The player's reaction time, fast twitch explosiveness, instincts, technique, endurance, etc are all going to play a MUCH bigger role in whether their a success or not than this height/weight nonsense.

Actually man, Sciz is right. The prototypical 2-gap 34 d-lineman is 6'5 to 6'7 precicely for the length factor. Why? Because while no one would ever try to ram someone with stiff arms (great visual, btw. Thoughts of Frankenstein), they will frequently lock out a player. Why do you think you see d-linemen in sled drills grip the bag thumbs up and extend? It simulates the punch and grab of the breastplate and the subsequent lockout. You lock a guy out, you stand him up and win the battle. If a lineman reaches your pads it's assumed that you lost. Further, that length enables the ends to see around the tackle or "peek" in vernacular. When a player is playing head-up and two gapping it is critical that they engage, control, identify. If you're gonna be penetrating, you don't need that height, and being in that 6'3 range is advantageous. You said that there are plenty of examples, and this is true, but in completely different 34's. See Pitt, GB, NY, Balt, SD, ect..just because they are 34 defenses doesn't mean that they play the same. Think about the difference between say a Dungy 43 and a Johnson 43. Completely different defenses with completely unique responsibilities.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

NFL Draft Scout----Powered By: The Sports Xchange

Christian Ballard played for Kirk Ferentz, lining up at various positions uncomplainingly. Hard worker. Durable. Defeats double teams. Needs work on his technique. 6'4" 298

I go back and forth on this guy a lot. But I keep coming back to the game against Arizona or Arizona state where he just couldn;t hold his ground and spent most of the game playing on skates.

If Klug had his size, Klug would be a top 5 pick.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

How does this dispute the proposition that BB appears to prefer taller guys with longer arms for the 3-4 DE role when spending high draft picks on them? How does this dispute the proposition that, all other things being equal, a taller guy has advantages over a shorter one in the DE role in BB's version of the 3-4?

BB's DE's spend all there time covering the B and C gaps and because they usually square up with OT's, BB needs DE's with the length and WIDE base that does not allow them to be stream rolled at the LOS.

With BB it is all about controling your gaps. Read first react second.

All things being equal I don;t think a 6'5" guy has that big an advantage over a 6'3" guy. However I think in BB'e mind, length is a big consideration.

In my mind, Dareus is head, shoulders and waist above all other 3-4 DE's in this draft.

Taking any other in the first round would probably be a reach and BB just does not reach.

 

[Snake Eyes]

Actually man, Sciz is right. The prototypical 2-gap 34 d-lineman is 6'5 to 6'7 precicely for the length factor. Why? Because while no one would ever try to ram someone with stiff arms (great visual, btw. Thoughts of Frankenstein), they will frequently lock out a player. Why do you think you see d-linemen in sled drills grip the bag thumbs up and extend? It simulates the punch and grab of the breastplate and the subsequent lockout. You lock a guy out, you stand him up and win the battle. If a lineman reaches your pads it's assumed that you lost. Further, that length enables the ends to see around the tackle or "peek" in vernacular. When a player is playing head-up and two gapping it is critical that they engage, control, identify. If you're gonna be penetrating, you don't need that height, and being in that 6'3 range is advantageous. You said that there are plenty of examples, and this is true, but in completely different 34's. See Pitt, GB, NY, Balt, SD, ect..just because they are 34 defenses doesn't mean that they play the same. Think about the difference between say a Dungy 43 and a Johnson 43. Completely different defenses with completely unique responsibilities.

The prototypical 3-4 DE might be 6’5-67 but that doesn’t mean they need to be in order to be very effective, same as the prototypical QB is 6’4 but Brees and Vick have been tearing it up at 6ft. Wilfork is only 6’2 and has done a fine job as DE, which proves that his height isn’t an issue. I’ve already listed several core competencies that have a MUCH bigger impact on success than whether Dareus is 6’3 rather than 6’4, but it’s a tad moot since we likely won’t be in a position to get him.

 

[jays52]

The prototypical 3-4 DE might be 6’5-67 but that doesn’t mean they need to be in order to be very effective, same as the prototypical QB is 6’4 but Brees and Vick have been tearing it up at 6ft. Wilfork is only 6’2 and has done a fine job as DE, which proves that his height isn’t an issue. I’ve already listed several core competencies that have a MUCH bigger impact on success than whether Dareus is 6’3 rather than 6’4, but it’s a tad moot since we likely won’t be in a position to get him.

The thing is that Dareus is a much better fit as a 3-technique or as a five technique which is what the upfield 34 end play. The Patriot ends play the four technique. Towards the argument on Brees, Vick (overrated), and Wilfork. They are special players. Wilfork is the second best defensive lineman in the NFL. That said, the fact that Wilfork has been playing end is indicative of their lack of depth and talent at DE.

The other aspect I didn't touch on is clogging the passing lanes. The Pats don't zone blitz, they don't overload, and they rarely send more than two backers. Given that the right end plays under the best pass rusher, there will be a lot of hots and single coverage on that side. What does that mean? The ball will travel over that end more frequently. Having a long player there causes a lot of disruption in the passing game. That's a really undervalued aspect of that position. The fact of the matter is that the Pats are in a situation where compromising won't get it done. They need prototypes. Be it Wilkerson in a steal, or if Carolina doesn't take him 1st overall trading up for Fairley.

 

[MaineMan]

The thing is that Dareus is a much better fit as a 3-technique or as a five technique which is what the upfield 34 end play. The Patriot ends play the four technique. Towards the argument on Brees, Vick (overrated), and Wilfork. They are special players. Wilfork is the second best defensive lineman in the NFL. That said, the fact that Wilfork has been playing end is indicative of their lack of depth and talent at DE.

The other aspect I didn't touch on is clogging the passing lanes. The Pats don't zone blitz, they don't overload, and they rarely send more than two backers. Given that the right end plays under the best pass rusher, there will be a lot of hots and single coverage on that side. What does that mean? The ball will travel over that end more frequently. Having a long player there causes a lot of disruption in the passing game. That's a really undervalued aspect of that position. The fact of the matter is that the Pats are in a situation where compromising won't get it done. They need prototypes. Be it Wilkerson in a steal, or if Carolina doesn't take him 1st overall trading up for Fairley.

Seems to me that, since Seymour was traded, the D-line has been a makeshift affair (even without current injuries) waiting for that elite, prototypical DE to arrive in order to become "whole" again. Of course, there really hasn't been one available in the past few drafts. In THIS draft, though, there's a bunch to choose from.

 

[MaineMan]

I go back and forth on this guy a lot. But I keep coming back to the game against Arizona or Arizona state where he just couldn;t hold his ground and spent most of the game playing on skates.

If Klug had his size, Klug would be a top 5 pick.

As a sidebar, in case you're keeping that original list for reference, here's a couple Shrine Game weigh-in measurements.

Klug - 6027/273, 31.5" arms

David Carter, DT, UCLA - 6044/297 - 33.8" arms

Based on what scouts have been saying about Carter's performance in practices, he's probably not going to be ranked UDFA much longer. Also, based on those notes and his measurements, he seems a much more viable candidate for a BB 3-4 DE.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

As a sidebar, in case you're keeping that original list for reference, here's a couple Shrine Game weigh-in measurements.

Klug - 6027/273, 31.5" arms

David Carter, DT, UCLA - 6044/297 - 33.8" arms

Based on what scouts have been saying about Carter's performance in practices, he's probably not going to be ranked UDFA much longer. Also, based on those notes and his measurements, he seems a much more viable candidate for a BB 3-4 DE.

Yes I hear you. I also read that Klug was struggling to hold his ground against the big bodies.

On Carter it all comes down to can he anchor at the POA? And does he have lateral agility? If the answer is yes, then regardless of what the draftniks think of him, he will be on BB's board.

 

[VJCPatriot]

In my mind, Dareus is head, shoulders and waist above all other 3-4 DE's in this draft.

Taking any other in the first round would probably be a reach and BB just does not reach.

Depends on how you define 'reach'. BB has made plenty of picks that were considered reaches at the time but worked out. Mankins at 32, Vollmer in Round 2, etc. Just because the guy's name isn't Dareus doesn't mean he's a reach.

Anyways just for reference, the most dominant rookie DL to be drafted in a long time, Ndamakung Suh measured in at the combine at:
6'4, 307, with 33.5" arms and 10.5" hands.
NFL Events: Combine Player Profiles - Ndamukong Suh

Those numbers sound just about average for a defensive end. But there's no doubt that Suh is already one of the best in the league. Although Suh plays in a different defensive system in Detroit, is there much doubt that he would still find success in the Pats system even with the measurements above?

David Carter, DT, UCLA - 6044/297 - 33.8" arms

Based on what scouts have been saying about Carter's performance in practices, he's probably not going to be ranked UDFA much longer. Also, based on those notes and his measurements, he seems a much more viable candidate for a BB 3-4 DE.

Sounds interesting based on the size. He's also a senior. Might be worth trying to mine a late round gem with this guy.
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=66903&draftyear=2011&genpos=DT

I could see the Pats drafting a couple of DL this draft easily.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

Anybody know anything about that "tweener" kid from Miami?

I saw a snipit on him and he seems a fit. However, i haven't seen anything written about him.

 

[Sciz]

Anybody know anything about that "tweener" kid from Miami?

I saw a snipit on him and he seems a fit. However, i haven't seen anything written about him.

I assume you're talking about Bailey?

Right now, he's a horrendous fit. He said in a December interview that he weighs 275 pounds. He's obviously trying to impress the 4-3 teams and 3-4 one-gap teams.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

I assume you're talking about Bailey?

Right now, he's a horrendous fit. He said in a December interview that he weighs 275 pounds. He's obviously trying to impress the 4-3 teams and 3-4 one-gap teams.

I noticed him in the "tweener". Is he a viable OLB for us? The article I saw had him at 290.

He may try to impress the one gap guys because there are more of them with teams converting to 3-4.

 

[MaineMan]

...........
WRT David Carter

Sounds interesting based on the size. He's also a senior. Might be worth trying to mine a late round gem with this guy.
David Carter | UCLA, DT : 2011 NFL Draft Scout Player Profile

I could see the Pats drafting a couple of DL this draft easily.

I liked Carter saying, "....but we can't miss assignments" after getting debacled by Washington's ground game. An appreciation for gap assignments over simply busting headlong into the backfield on every snap is something you kinda want in a DE for BB's 3-4.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

NFL Draft Scout----Powered By: The Sports Xchange

Christian Ballard played for Kirk Ferentz, lining up at various positions uncomplainingly. Hard worker. Durable. Defeats double teams. Needs work on his technique. 6'4" 298

Box_O_Broken Record: Ballard needs a GPS, compass, road map, road signs, and a co-pilot to find the football. Can't tackle what you can't find. /Broken Record

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Box_O_Broken Record: Ballard needs a GPS, compass, road map, road signs, and a co-pilot to find the football. Can't tackle what you can't find. /Broken Record

That's rather harsh don't you think?

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

That's rather harsh don't you think?

Accurate can be harsh. The kid has the tools to be a good player in the right system, which for him would be a 4-3 DE in a one gap scheme. From the edge he has more time to locate the ball and let his immense natural athleticism take him there, he's also more likely to be dealing with one-on-one blocking where he would have a better chance to get free and make a play. As long as RBs were running past him while he was unblocked, I can't see him as a fit for NE at a 4/5-tech DE where his assignment would be to engage one or more blockers while maintaining awareness of what's developing in the backfield.

 

[everlong]

I don't think Watt is a good fit from what I've seen of him. He's most effective when getting up the field and when he has to take a blocker on heads up and maintain his ground he is frequently shoved back. I think in a Jarvis Green type role he could be very good but in the range he's being projected to go I don't see the Pats drafting him for that job.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I don't think Watt is a good fit from what I've seen of him. He's most effective when getting up the field and when he has to take a blocker on heads up and maintain his ground he is frequently shoved back. I think in a Jarvis Green type role he could be very good but in the range he's being projected to go I don't see the Pats drafting him for that job.

Watt is a TE converted to DE, his technique needs work, he needs to get stronger, both will help him at the point of attack.

 

[everlong]

Watt is a TE converted to DE, his technique needs work, he needs to get stronger, both will help him at the point of attack.

That was a plus a couple of years ago for the boards favorite OLB, no?

Still just saying he would be a project and if he's going late first I think it's too high.