Panthers will listen to trade offers for Jonathan Stewart

[TyronePoole]

I agree with the 2nd half of your statement, but in the past he's given a 2nd for Welker, a 2nd for Dillion, a 4th for Moss, and also gave out picks for Ted Washington, Ocho, Haynesworth and many others over the years. So he builds them up cuz he sees value in doing so, but he's also willing to deal them for veterans if he sees value in that too.

Like BB always says with that classic boring monotone voice..."I'm just doing what I think is best for the team"

I didn't say he's opposed to getting players at positions of need by trading picks, but he got those players on the cheap and they were in positions of great need at the time. There is just no value whatsoever in trading a 2nd for a RB with mileage who will have a huge contract, is in an extremely short-tenured position where we already have 3 guys and which our offense isn't geared towards anyway.

 

[ausbacker]

I didn't say he's opposed to getting players at positions of need by trading picks, but he got those players on the cheap and they were in positions of great need at the time. There is just no value whatsoever in trading a 2nd for a RB with mileage who will have a huge contract, is in an extremely short-tenured position where we already have 3 guys and which our offense isn't geared towards anyway.

Are you proposing that Stewart has mileage? You may want to re-think that position if so.

 

[borg]

Last years draft...
#62 Daniel Thomas
#71 DeMarco Muarry
#73 Stevan Ridley
#105 Roy Helu

2010 Draft...
#58 Ben Tate

2009 Draft...
#53 LeSean McCoy
#65 Sean Greene


So there are guys out there in that range that can be very good.

Also they could get by with Just Woodhead and Vereen if needed, they don't rely on the run and can adjust easily on the fly.

McCoy is the only 3 down stud on the list...and Philly is about to break the bank extending him. The Pats could control Stewart for the next two years at $4.5 mill per yr......I see that as value...vs Philly going 8 figures per yr. Brady is short on years....lets make this offense balanced NOW.......one late #2 and this offense hits the ground running in September....were you all not paying attention in '04...the greatest Pats team of alltime...behind Dillon's 1600 yds. The airshow is fun to watch....but owning the clock has value

 

[TyronePoole]

Are you proposing that Stewart has mileage? You may want to re-think that position if so.

Are you proposing that he doesn't? If so you might want to reevaluate the reality of the RB position in the NFL. He's been in the league for 4 years, splitting time or not, the odds are against him having more than 2 more years of above average productivity as a feature back.

 

[borg]

BB acquires draft picks for draft day and overrall flexibility in case of emergency and because he clearly thinks the NFL collective has a distorted system of valuation, if you think he's been building them up to blow his wad you haven't been paying attention. We have RBs on the roster that we drafted fairly high last year, so I don't know how you can say he's "ignored" the position. We are the best passing offense in the league, upgrading the RB position isn't of great value as long as we are functional there and have depth.

Against a strong defense, the potent Brady airshow gets grounded and the disparity in time of possession takes its toll in the 4th qtr. As far as value goes....except for the inept NFL teams that throw huge contracts at RBs because they don't have servicable QBs, the RB position has been devalued so low that it is a buyers market....and value can be had. To the poster who insists that a Stewart trade requires a giant contract....can they explain why that is. I see the Pats controlling his rights at $1.3 and $7.7 mill over the next two years.....that is a bargain....not expensive at all.
As far as blowing wads....even if the Pats give up a late #2 for Stewart and 2 years control at a reasonable average salary....the Patriots still have 50% more premium draft picks than 90% of NFL teams......seems like there is plenty of wad left...not to mention a 3 down stud starter

 

[brady199]

McCoy is the only 3 down stud on the list...and Philly is about to break the bank extending him. The Pats could control Stewart for the next two years at $4.5 mill per yr......I see that as value...vs Philly going 8 figures per yr. Brady is short on years....lets make this offense balanced NOW.......one late #2 and this offense hits the ground running in September....were you all not paying attention in '04...the greatest Pats team of alltime...behind Dillon's 1600 yds. The airshow is fun to watch....but owning the clock has value

Where are you coming up with that?

 

[BradyFTW!]

Are you proposing that he doesn't? If so you might want to reevaluate the reality of the RB position in the NFL. He's been in the league for 4 years, splitting time or not, the odds are against him having more than 2 more years of above average productivity as a feature back.

I dunno if I'd agree with that. It doesn't matter how many years he's been around; what matters is how many carries he's had, and by extension how many hits he's absorbed. There's a reason why Kevin Faulk hung around until his mid-30s. Guys who aren't featured early on tend to have longer productive careers. 725 career carries certainly isn't nothing, but Tomlinson, for example, was north of 2,000 before he started to break down. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Stewart still has 1,250-1,500 carries of productive usage in him. Even at a workhorse pace, that's 4-5 full seasons.

 

[Sciz]

Come on patsfans......BB has accumulated hoards of picks for opportunities like this. The Pats have a decided advantage in draft picks....and they are allowed to splurge....aka ....getting the piece they want/need. They wanted Welker....a #2 wasn't enough....so they tossed in a low round kicker. Dillon....a #2 for a one year gig.

These are both bad examples. Welker got a 5 year contract when he was traded. Dillon had two years left and was 29 at the time. Stewart is young, underpaid, and only has a year left.

 

[TyronePoole]

I dunno if I'd agree with that. It doesn't matter how many years he's been around; what matters is how many carries he's had, and by extension how many hits he's absorbed. There's a reason why Kevin Faulk hung around until his mid-30s. Guys who aren't featured early on tend to have longer productive careers. 725 career carries certainly isn't nothing, but Tomlinson, for example, was north of 2,000 before he started to break down. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Stewart still has 1,250-1,500 carries of productive usage in him. Even at a workhorse pace, that's 4-5 full seasons.

Kevin Faulk is the exception, not the rule. Tomlinson is a generational talent that is an extreme outlier.

725 rushes receptions for Stewart. At this point in his career Faulk had 324 Rushes. I didn't say Stewart was cooked I said he has mileage, which I listed amongst a number of factors that diminish his value to the Pats.

 

[SoonerPatriot]

The Panthers are going to want at least a 2nd, and Stewart is going to want a big-money contract as a part of the trade. And my stance on that is the same as with Mike Wallace, that using both high picks and high money on one player is very rarely worth it.

I think you are right on the money with the pick. Don't completely agree on the salary though. The market for RBs is soft right now. Green-Ellis was had for peanuts by Cincy. Stewart has been good but not spectacular the last couple of years even taking into account that he shares the backfield with another player that they have spent a lot of money on.

But what would be an issue for any potential deal is Stewart probably doesn't believe the market for RBs is soft until he had a chance to test the market. Under a trade scenario he would obviously not have that chance.

 

[borg]

Where are you coming up with that?

2012 salary...$1.3 mill
2013 salary (using the 2012 RB franchise tag amount) $7.7 mill
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
total $9.0 mill/2=$4.5 mill/yr

 

[BradyFTW!]

Kevin Faulk is the exception, not the rule. Tomlinson is a generational talent that is an extreme outlier.

725 rushes receptions for Stewart. At this point in his career Faulk had 324 Rushes. I didn't say Stewart was cooked I said he has mileage, which I listed amongst a number of factors that diminish his value to the Pats.

There's a lot more examples that are an awful lot like Faulk. Name pretty much any RB who didn't start until late in his career.

 

[TyronePoole]

There's a lot more examples that are an awful lot like Faulk. Name pretty much any RB who didn't start until late in his career.

I really hope we aren't talking about acquiring a Kevin Faulk.

 

[borg]

Kevin Faulk is the exception, not the rule. Tomlinson is a generational talent that is an extreme outlier.

725 rushes receptions for Stewart. At this point in his career Faulk had 324 Rushes. I didn't say Stewart was cooked I said he has mileage, which I listed amongst a number of factors that diminish his value to the Pats.

Is averaging 12 touches a game considered high mileage? The kid is only 25, missed only 2 games in his career despite achilles problems 2 years ago. I have been pounding the table for this guy for two years. I started a "trade for Stewart" thread 2 years ago after watching all his starts at the end of the '09 season. He closed out that season with some amazing performances using power, wiggle, and speed. He steam rolled LBs like Bo....deked like a scat back, and just turned up the speed down field. At the time, I thought I saw a faster Dillon but with hands. I'm still relying on those memories hoping he still is that guy....maybe not. The fact they overpaid Williams with Stewart on the roster puzzled me at the time....but now he is a chip Carolina can use to build up their awful D

 

[brady199]

2012 salary...$1.3 mill
2013 salary (using the 2012 RB franchise tag amount) $7.7 mill
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
total $9.0 mill/2=$4.5 mill/yr

I'm not sure if there is anyone on the roster currently that they would consider using the tag on, but lets say they pull off the trade and ATTEMPT to use a tag on Stewart, I'm pretty sure he would sit out. I can't recall many RB's playing with the tag. They have limited years to make big money and are more prone to injury imo then other positional players. Also not sure the Pats could pay up close to 8 mill even if it was for one season.

 

[patsfan_1281]

How about no. We drafted Ridley and Vereen for a reason - so instead of trading a high draft pick to acquire an above average RB with mileage to play in a pass heavy offense....let's develop the two young talented RB's we have. With those two and Woody, we have plenty of depth at the RB position.

 

[ausbacker]

Are you proposing that he doesn't? If so you might want to reevaluate the reality of the RB position in the NFL. He's been in the league for 4 years, splitting time or not, the odds are against him having more than 2 more years of above average productivity as a feature back.

So you've made a baseless claim then gone on to make another baseless claim without any data to support both. Right.

 

[TyronePoole]

So you've made a baseless claim then gone on to make another baseless claim without any data to support both. Right.

what was my "baseless claim" exactly? You picked ONE word out of my original post. Mileage. It is an indisputable fact that he has mileage. The fact that you seem to be interpreting that as me saying he's done or close to done is not my problem.

 

[ausbacker]

what was my "baseless claim" exactly? You picked ONE word out of my original post. Mileage. It is an indisputable fact that he has mileage. The fact that you seem to be interpreting that as me saying he's done or close to done is not my problem.

It is absolutely your problem. Stewart has 725 carries in 4 seasons for 3500 at 4.8 yards a pop. That's 181 carries a year. In 2011, 32 RB's totalled more carries than Stewart, with 16 above his career high of 221 (2009).

Mileage implicates he has done some yards. Compared to other running backs, nothing can be further from the truth. In fact, his mileage is pretty darn good given his level of talent and production. This is one of the reasons I believe teams may have some leverage in contract negotiation. It could be heavily incentive based.

 

[TyronePoole]

It is absolutely your problem. Stewart has 725 carries in 4 seasons for 3500 at 4.8 yards a pop. That's 181 carries a year. In 2011, 32 RB's totalled more carries than Stewart, with 16 above his career high of 221 (2009).

Mileage implicates he has done some yards. Compared to other running backs, nothing can be further from the truth. In fact, his mileage is pretty darn good given his level of talent and production.

You mentioning how many RBs had more carries than him in a single year is totally irrelevant. Mileage implies that he has played for a noteworthy period of time that is likely going to be a large chunk of his overall total when it's all said and done. For this not to be true he'd have to be one of the best RBs of all time. 725 carries is over half the amount of carries that very successful RBs usually have. Even if it was only a third it still drives down his value. Yards is irrelevant, it's how many times he's been hit or tackled that matters obviously.

Which is more valuable a a car with 10k miles or a car with 50k? A car with 50k still can be productive so by your logic it has no mileage right? would you pay the same price?