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Pakistan rape reform fails after Musharraf caves in

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by DarrylS, Sep 12, 2006.

  1. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Found this article disturbing, particularly as Pakistan is described as one of our allies in this area of the world... sometimes I scratch my head a lot and wonder what the hell is going on here..

    http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia/article1521834.ece

    In a setback for women's rights in Pakistan, the ruling party in Islamabad has caved in to religious conservatives by dropping its plans to reform rape laws.

    Statutes known as the Hudood ordinances, based on sharia law, currently operate in Pakistan. They require a female rape victim to produce four male witnesses to corroborate her account, or she risks facing a new charge of adultery.

    The ruling party in Islamabad, made up of a coalition of groups allied to President Pervez Musharraf, had hoped the new Protection of Women Bill would place the crime of rape within the country's secular penal code, which works in tandem with sharia.

    But the government said rape would remain a crime punished by Islamic law yesterday after conservatives in an opposition group, Muttahida Majlis-I-Amal (MMA), threatened to walk out of parliament in protest if the government pushed ahead with reforms.

    "If there are four witnesses it will be tried under [Islamic law], if there are not, it will be tried under the penal code," said the law minister, Mohammad Wasi Zafar. "In the case of both adultery and rape, the judge will decide how to try the case." A new amended bill will now be presented to parliament on Wednesday.
     
  2. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Pro Bowl Player

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    #75 Jersey

    If our enemy, Musharrif, is caving in on this, what's he going to cave in on next in order to remain in power? He's a false leader who retains his power by getting aid and weapons from the US. This chirade won't last as he has become a political joke in his own country. Moving backwards is not a good sign.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2006
  3. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    It's Bush's fault.
     
  4. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey

    Good post...women's and childrens rights in that part of the world are horrible at best. Many things we enjoy in this country people from other countries would die for. Saudi Arabia is worse than Pakistan, and they look the other way with the rape of children also.

    You post bothers me in very political ways also...how when we need an ally or a psuedo ally we tend to look the other way if it suits our purposes. We draw a hard line on China & North Korea in terms of human rights and we now become silent on the violations of India & Pakistan because we need them. Saudi Arabia of course we have always been silent upon.

    In one of the smallest countries in that region...Qatar...women are enjoying many freedoms and respect. They are a model for the entire region and they are faithfull Muslims at the same time.

    more good info here for deeper information:
    http://www.hrcp-web.org/
    http://www.lhrla.sdnpk.org/

    One of my favorite bookmarks:
    http://hrw.org/

    I could talk about human rights everyday of the week as I prefer issues discussions to political discussions anyways. My 2 favorite political causes are Human Rights & Poverty.

    Though a right leaning moderate, I see no righty who has this agenda and thus I still have my fingers crossed(Patters also), that John Edwards makes a move. Talk about putting pressure on these governments like Pakistan...John Edwards has the cahones to do it.
     
  5. PatsFanInEaglesLand

    PatsFanInEaglesLand In the Starting Line-Up

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    #37 Jersey

    Whatever idiot! It is all the liberal fools like yourself, who tell everyone that we need to understand and accept the muslim religion.
     
  6. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    No, that's not true. I think fundamentalists of all stripes are very dangerous. The Muslim fundamentalists, empowered by wiping out Saddam and Baathists, by taking out Iran's biggest regional enemy, by destablizing the region are more dangerous than ever. Here, at home, the anti-women and anti-gay fundies are losing some ground, as some of their members of higher integrity recall that religion is about love and peace and charity. But, still, there's no denying that the religious conservatives in our country are among the shrinking number who continue to back the president who has empowered religious radicals all over the world, including at home.
     
  7. PatsFanInEaglesLand

    PatsFanInEaglesLand In the Starting Line-Up

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    #37 Jersey

    Not everything has to do with your man **** agenda. For you to even compare what goes on here to what was written about Pakistan, just shows you lack of reality. Killing/embarrassing woman for being raped has no bearing on someone in this country who doesn't like to children aborted or raped.
     
  8. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    If a Right Wing Christian Conservative who supports America and George Bush stands up and publicly Condems the Muslim Country's on their Cruelty and their degrading of Women, "WHO DO YOU THINK AMERICA'S LIBERAL WILL SUPPORT"

    Instead of agreeing with the "Neo Con" the American Liberal will scream RACISM & BIGOTRY all because of their own "hatred" for the Neo Con, why is it when the Muslim screams "Death to the infedel, death to the American" the Liberal never seems to think of racism or bigotry, is it their belief that only White Christian American Conservatives are capable of racism.

    The Backward Cruel Degrading Treatment Of Women is practiced by the cruel degrading Muslim Culture, America's enemy happens to be part of that cruel degrading culture,(terrorists) therefore American Liberals "ARE SILENT", I don't know why but American Liberals always seem to support and side with America's enemy, even the ones that were not even alive now try to blame WWII on America, they side with the enemy who sneakly attacked America and wanted to destroy America, they make excuses for the little murderers that bombed Pearl Harbor and later Bayoneted 18 year old American Boys in the stomach during the Battan Death March because they couldn't walk.

    When America is at war America has two enemy's, the ones that are shooting at them and the American Liberal who is attacking them with words, now in this day and age the New Democrats have joined them.

    The People Know.

    The phony two faced blabbing liberals had better keep their mouths shut about "womens rights" from now on, Billy Blue Dress & The Muslim Culture have made fools of them.

    Where were the "Womens Rights Activists" when Kathleen Wileys cat was being murdered or when Juanita Broderick was being raped by the democrats lover boy. Billy grinned, then he bit his lip, then all the "womens lib girls" swooned and fainted.
    Double Standard Bastards.
     
  9. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Well, I think it's obvious that our foreign policy is making radicals all over bolder. It's true their radicals are worse than ours, but it's also true that their radicals are using our foreign adventurism has a rallying cry -- Join the Muslim radicals and fight the United States that's killing innocent civilians and desecrating mosques in Iraq. While that's not the whole story, it may be enough for some people to turn away from the American-allied Pakistani government and support the Muslim fundamentalists.
     
  10. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    i love this crowd. As if radicals were exemplary citizens prior to GW being elected to office. What maroons. These clowns have enjoyed these types of laws since there existence. If anything, the very fact that reforms could even be introduced is a sign of advancement when compared to history. Used to be that a reform would be met with incarceration and/or death to those who desired them. Funny how it takes 3,000 people to die for some idiots to actually figure out what goes on in other parts of the world, only, they think that it only started when the 3,000 people died. Advice to you folk, there was a world outside that rock you walked out from under on September 11th, 2001, and it wasn't a pretty one in some places.

    Pakistan is light years behind us. No doubt. Maybe the fact that reforms like this are voted down would serve as an example of what Musharef has to deal with. One angle to consider here, and I know this involves some common sense, but think of Musharefs position. He tries to implement basic rape rights for women, and it forced to agree to lousy compromise (if it's even a compromise). Obviously, his constituents are not pro-western. Think of how sentiment in his country must be when he allies himself with the USA. The guy is going against the will of the people because he knows he is doing what is right. For any of us to hold him to American standards is nonsensical. That he even does what he has should be considered amazing. Imagine Bush helping terrorists, that's what a giant chunk of the Paki people feel he is doing by helping us.

    As for China, did someone say we hold them them to higher standards? How? Where? When? Have any of you seen how much business we do with China? Have you seen how much commerce we trade with them? How about how much of our debt they own? We hold the Chinese to high standards...that is funny.
     
  11. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey

    Patters if you wish to use that argument then by all means let's be honest about it and go back to the creation of Israel and then mostly the Israel/Lebanon war. You can't just pick a point in time to make a valid point.

    Muslims burned effigies of Carter, Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, Bush II and the next guy is going to get hung from his nuts also...opinion is one thing and attempting to rewrite history is another. Liberals need to stop trying to rewrite history to bolster their opinion. Bush was not the birth of these nutjobs.
     
  12. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    To most liberals he is. Liberals don't get it. They don't understand reality. Lots of book smarts no street smarts is how I like to describe it. Radicals have been animals of islam since their inception. The only difference being that 911 forced liberals to have to talk about it. You even have some in here that think we can, and actually should, try to talk to them. HA! To funny.

    I was watching NGEO last night. They had two shows on back to back. One on 9/11, the other on UBL in Afghanistan and the chase for him that failed. Very good shows, especially the 9/11 show. The UBL had one part that I truly stood out to me. It said that as UBL was dodging the chase in the White Mountains near Pakistan, a Paki reporter was granted an interview with him as they hiked. With the bombs landing dangerously close UBL told him that they may both die during the interview from the ordanance, but that it was ok. UBL explained this by saying, and I quote the show:

    "We muslims embrace death as glorious. Whereas Americans value life. This is what makes us so different."

    Pretty F'd up if you ask me.
     
  13. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I never suggested that the radicals didn't exist before Bush, but I do believe they are stronger now than they have been in many years. I also think that by taking out the Baathists, we took out one of the key checks on the fundamentalists. As long as Saddam was in power, radicals could turn either to Saddam or the fundies, and the net effect of that was they were both weaker. It's pretty obvious that the radical religious elements of the Muslim World are stronger now than they were.
     
  14. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey

    You have a right to that opinion but you can't prove it no more than I can prove they are weaker. I believe many Muslims have tired of the rhetoric and want to prove to the world that Islam is a religion of peace. For every new terrorist recruited many more go the other way.

    Most Muslims have proven that they can adapt to modern society and not sin against their religion at the same time. I see Muslim women driving mini-vans with an outfit resembling the Burka. They pray everyday, go to the Mosques regularly, and still bring the kids to soccer practice and ballet lessons.

    Islam is a religion in transition and that will work against them in the long run...for that, the above, and all things related I say they are weaker and will continue to grow weaker.

    We did not make them more powerfull...their growth coincides perfectly with the growth of communications, the internet, GPS devices and the like. They would be stronger if the Taliban were still in power...they could be in Iraq now...who knows.

    If they can't get a better toehold in Africa they are doomed to isolationism...and that is the plan of most of our politicians in D.C....winning the WOT=isolation of the extremeists...it's the best that anyone will ever be able to do until there are future technology breaks.
     
  15. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    This sort of barbaric behavior has been going on in this culture for >1000 years (BTW I thought you enlightened people like cultural diversity). Trying to tie it into our foreign policy toward Islamist is stupid.

    Your attempt to equate Christian fundamentalist in the US to this sort of thing borders on hate speech. It would be the same as me claiming that I don't like gays becuase of NAMBLA members.
     
  16. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Are you serious? They now control Iran and have more influence than they've had in a very long time in Iraq. Where do you think they're weaker?

    I believe most Muslims just go about their lives the way most Christians and Jews do. They have nothing to prove, and nothing to prove to the world. What do you think America is trying to prove?

    Of course.

    Well, like I said, they now have more control in Iran than they had since Reagan. They have more influence in Iraq than they had under Saddam. Their biggest enemy, the relatively secular Baathists, have been largely wiped out. They also have gained control in Somalia, despite Bush (and maybe Clinton -- I don't know) backing their opponents. Many experts say that the Muslim religion is the fastest growing religion in the world, and much of that is being led by the fundies.

    A better toehold in Africa? Man, you don't know much about Africa, do you.
     
  17. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey

    That situation will change very soon. Our men have been freed up from Afghanistan and soon we will be pulling out of Iraq as more military divisions get going(right now just 1).

    They are not entrenched over there. entrenched is a military With major weapons...like the Taliban..that was entrenched. We could slide into Iran right now if we so chose. The enemy fights better but we have learned much in Iraq and there will be less mistakes in Africa.

    The radicals are moving quickly because they know we are coming. This is why they are helping us stay longer in Iraq. Look at the big picture Patters...there are many reasons for what they do...their numbers may be down...but the leadership remains closely knit.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2006
  18. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    F.B.N., I really don't think you have it right. The issue is far more complex than what you are describing. The Muslim religion is seen by many as lending itself to Socialism moreso than the Christian religion. As a result, the battle rages on many different levels. The radical Muslims are successfully blending two powerful currents to build a foundation: Socialism and Islamic fundamentalism. They are creating a philosophy that is connecting with the people. They have a long way to go, but the fact is the people have nowhere else to turn, but to corrupt leaders or a West that they see as destroying and exploiting their land.

    There is no way we can win this war the way we're going about it, because there is no way we can present a viable alternative. Even though our way of life is better than there's, we cannot convince them of our intentions in the course of occupying them, killing them, exploiting their resources, and backing dictators.
     
  19. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    Radicals where? In Iraq or the world? You refer to removing the Baa'thists as freeing the fundamentalists. So does that mean that Iraq was radical? I thought Iraq was secular? You need to make up your mind and be consistent. Oh, and incase you haven't noticed, we haven't been hit in 5 years. We will be, it's a matter of mathematics. However, if they are stronger, why have they not been able to succeed in hitting us? The radicals may have grown in recruitment. There I agree, but I believe that their hierarchy has suffered great losses, thus making them weaker, not stronger. I just find it amazing that some people feel like we're doing wrong by pissing terrorists off. As if we should keep quiet and not respond with force. We did that for 20 years and look where that got us. I guess some people will never learn.
     
  20. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    Was there a point in any of that? Socialist fundamentalists? What are you talking about? Mexicans have no hope, so they invade the USA. The difference is they don't blow us up in the process.

    As for your "democratic" Iran....HAHAHAHA!

    Wow some people are really out of touch.
     

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