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Pakistan on the Edge: Angry Citizens Say Time for 'Busharraf' to Go

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Real World, Dec 26, 2006.

  1. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    I've been trying to explain how delicate the situation in both Pakistan, and the surrounding region has been for some time now. Too few ever see that there is sometimes a much broader picture to examine than that with which they know. Pakistan is a strange nation. It's a nuclear power, a facilitator of nuclear technology, though possibley unknowingly, to rogue states (Iran, Lybia, etc) via their famous scientist Abdul Qadeer Khan, a reformist muslim nation who's populace is significantly split between Sharia Law and capitalism, and an ally of the US post 9/11. Were Pakistan to fall into chaos, or to radical control, it could spin that continent into a very violent direction.

    Pakistan on the Edge: Angry Citizens Say Time for 'Busharraf' to Go
    November 16, 2006 3:15 PM

    Maddy Sauer Reports:

    Anti-American sentiment has reached an all-time high in Pakistan, and it could affect the United States' efforts to track down al Qaeda leaders, U.S. and Pakistani intelligence sources say.

    "A worse case scenario," said Robert Grenier, the former director of CIA Counterterrorism, "is that it turns into a full-blown tribal war, and the costs to the Pakistanis are extremely high, and then it is an inhibitor for the Pakistanis to take an aggressive counterterrorism action that we would like for them to take on a continuing basis."

    Intelligence sources now fear that, after two missile strikes this year that killed dozens but failed to take out any high-value al Qaeda targets, it could be months, if not years, before the U.S. can launch another strike in Pakistan.


    "Anti-American sentiment is now at a boiling point," said Akbar Ahmed, a former Pakistani High Commissioner and now a professor of Islamic Studies at American University in Washington, D.C. "And with America completely focused on Iraq, the last thing the U.S. needs is a crisis in Pakistan, which is its closest ally in the war on terror in the Eastern frontier."

    The recent strike on a madrassa that killed 80 people has only led to increased anger and protests on the streets despite the Pakistani government's claim that the school was training terrorists.

    "People are saying President Musharaff has sold out to the U.S., and it's time for him to go," said Ahmed. "They call him 'Busharraf.'"

    A worsening of the internal crisis in Pakistan could have a ripple effect in Afghanistan, where the Taliban is now waging a bloody insurgency, according to Ahmed.

    "The Taliban situation across the border in Afghanistan would immediately alter because Pakistan gives the Taliban depth; it gives it territory; it gives support in that many of the tribal people sympathize with the Taliban, and suddenly you'll see a very dramatic change in the war on terror in the Eastern front," said Ahmed.

    http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2006/11/pakistan_on_the.html
  2. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    This is the big problem with US meddling in the area. We have potentially created another instrument of destruction by being short-sighted for the sake of weapons sales. What a surprise!

    How many times do we have to experience this outcome before we stop selling 21st century weaponry to 17th century cultures? How long before the King of Saudi Arabia is killed and the "Royal Family" shot at the Grand Mosque courtyard by the new radically conservative Islamic state taking its place? As long as we keep shooting ourselves in the foot, we'll have to get used to having enemies who not only hate us, but are armed to the teeth with our own weapons.

    Why don't the Chinese have to deal with this crap? Brilliant!
  3. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Read and seen some stuff where there are many madrassas that train taliban and extreme muslim teachings just over the border in Pakistan, and this gov't turns its head.. Pakistan is also a conduit for the poppy production that takes place in Afghanistan.. there is no clear lines of demarcation and it is pretty open. IMO our relationship with Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran and the rest of the stans will continue to utilize our resources for the rest of our lives.
  4. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    Wistah, I don't quite understand your point here. What arms sales are you talking about?
  5. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    Like I said GA, there is a very volatile mix of old and new in Pakistan. The important point is that the president is pro western, and pro reform. Remember how much trouble he had trying to bring about changes with respect to rape laws in Pakistan. We discussed them in here. The actions in these countries are similar to what goes on in nations with which we purchase oil. I'd say that dealing with a Mushareff is far better than doing bisuness with Saudi Royals. At the very least, Mushareff wants freedoms bestowed upon his people, whereas the Royals don't.
  6. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/reports/wawjune2005.html

    The largest U.S. military aid program, Foreign Military Financing (FMF), increased by 68% between 2001 and 2003, from $3.5 billion to nearly $6 billion. These years coincided with the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks and the run-up to the U.S. intervention in Iraq. The biggest increases in dollar terms went to countries that were directly or indirectly engaged as U.S. allies in the wars in Iraq or Afghanistan, including Jordan ($525 million increase from 2001 to 2003), Afghanistan ($191 million increase), Pakistan ($224 million increase) and Bahrain ($90 million increase). The Philippines, where the United States stepped up joint operations against a local terrorist group with alleged links to al-Qaeda, also received a substantial increase of FMF funding ($47 million) from 2001 to 2003. Military aid totals have leveled off slightly since their FY 2003 peak, coming in at a requested $4.5 billion for 2006. This is still a full $1 billion more than 2001 levels. The number of countries receiving FMF assistance nearly doubled from FY 2001 to FY 2006-- from 48 to 71.

    I wonder how long it will take these weapons to end up in the hands of our enemies who were once our friends? Remember how much we spent arming the Mujahadeen in Soviet-controlled Afghanistan? How's that been working out for us?
  7. All_Around_Brown

    All_Around_Brown Rookie

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    Ah yes...the mooj. Our allies in a short sighted proxy war that produced a movement that was hell bent on destroying intervening superpowers, and with our help, was provided the confidence that it could be done through guerilla tactics and atrition. The USSR consumed a good portion of its treasure fighting the mooj in Afghanistan, to ultimate failure. That man we trained of course is Osama Bin "Forgotten" Laden.

    I wonder if the chimp learned any lessons about such foreign entanglements from his days at Yale?
  8. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    The only foreign entanglement Bush learned about at Yale was when he got slapped by a Canadian girl after he grabbed her breasts on a date at a Skull 'n' Bones party.
  9. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    Remember fellas, support for the mooj started with Carter & the British SAS, was escalated under Reagan & Bush, and was left for dead once the Soviets withdrew from Afghanistan. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Such has been the mentality of all nations throughout history. Certainly no one complained about such a phylosophy during the second world war when the Russians made expendable some 27 million of its citizens to help defeat the Nazi's. That the Soviets, through western aid, would move to control half of europe, and engage the democratic west in 5 decades of Cold War was as irrelevent as it was inconceivable. Hindsight is clearly 20/20. At the time of the Cold War no one could have conceived that the mooj would become what they are today. Some have opined that a nation building effort post the Soviet withdrawl would have done wonders to prevent their growth into Al-Queda. Who knows though. At any rate, I think 9/11 has opened peoples eyes to the flawed concepts of the past. Today's enemy, unlike the primitive mooj of the past, is as deadly an animal as can be considered. My guess is that past regimes felt some towle heads with AK's could never be a threat to us on a global scale. Well, modernity, and weapons proliferation have clearly proven otherwise.
  10. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Whist,
    That is probably the most brilliant post I have seen on here, America is nuts, our politicians are nuts, the savages now know this, the savages that we think are nuts don't think we are nuts, they know we are nuts, flying saucers refuse to land on this planet because they too realize that we are all nuts, they keep coming back to check on us and every time they do we are in the middle of a f-cking war, they say "Jesus Christ the bastard nuts are still killing each other" then they fly off to a "sane planet".

    Big trouble is headed our way here in America, I'll be checking out in a few years, I hate to think about what my Grandchildren will have to see.

    I wonder if Al Gore will still be counting smoke stacks?
    :bricks:
  11. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    The Soviets only needed temporary relief and deserved it for helping to save the world (and themselves) from the Nazis. I never heard of a US weapons program for them, though. It's the sale of weapons I'm talking about.

    And 9/11 has openned no one's eyes in this regard. The report I linked outlines weapons sales to unstable and undemocratic regimes since 9/11 as well as before. Proliferation of WMD technology continues unabated and the chief financial beneficiaries are American weapons manufacturers, a.k.a. the Military-Industrial Complex.
  12. Seymour93

    Seymour93 Rookie

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    We need to continue to support Musharaff behind the scenes because he's better than Islamic democracy. I hope we've learned that lesson.
  13. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    What makes you say that? At least with an Islamic democracy (and isn't that what we want the whole world to have?) will no longer receive advanced weapons from us, France, or GB. What lesson do you think we should have learned? How long do you think Musharraf can hold on there?
  14. Seymour93

    Seymour93 Rookie

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    Look at Islamic democracy in Iraq. It would be ten times worse in Pakistan because the population is much greater and the nuclear arsenal to boot. If you give them freedoms they are just going to elect radicals like al-Sadr. The sad reality is most parts of the Islamic world aren't ready for Jeffersonian democracy.
  15. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    I agree.
    But how long do you think he can hold power, and how do you deal with anyone else in the region or Pakistan after Musharraf is killed?
  16. Seymour93

    Seymour93 Rookie

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    I would hope the military keeps power indefinitely- like the present situation in Burma. IF the military falls to radical Islamist forces like the Taliban then we're ****ed, simple as. That's why we need to continue to arm and support Musharraf.
  17. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    Ther reason we'd be f-cked is that when - not if - Muslim fundamentalists are able to overthrow the oppressive dictatorships we have been supporting with money and weapons, they will remember the US as having been the source of their former oppressor's power. How do you think they will look at us then? It's not a matter of "if", it's a matter of "when". These countries hate us not because we're not Islamic, or rich...they hate us because of our support of immoral regimes in their homeland like the Saudi and Jordanian kings, the Zionists in Israel, the Shah of Iran, the "secular" Musharrif, the list will contiinue to grow through time.

    Freedom to live as they want is what everyone in the world desires. Life in an Islamic society is what most in the ME have decided they want. We are keeping them from having it.
  18. All_Around_Brown

    All_Around_Brown Rookie

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    you make too much sense. Are you sure you are a conservative??
  19. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    So you'd like an Islamic Democracy like Iran in Pakistan? Mushareff will hold on, so long as we don't tip the scale against him. Capturing or killing UBL would certainly do that.


    As for the Soviets, they needed more than just time. Had the Germans not delayed there offensive in '42, the Russians were sunk. Moskow certainly would have fallen, and with that, the Soviet Union. Remember the lend lease acts we had with the Soviets. We gave them lots of weaponry. The best of all was the Brits who gave the Soviets there prized Rolls Royce aircraft engines for free.
  20. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    Absolutely. In todays day and age, a Jeffersonian type of democracy has to be fed slowly. The difficulty is finding men who will relinquish there powers for the betterment of the people. Installing a limited democracy with an iron fist at first, would be sensible so long as the iran fist would let go as civility grows. Most won't though. It's why George Washington was so special. He was a man who let go of nations most powerful position, even though he didn't have to.

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