Pacman Jones suspended for season, Henry for 8 games

[Fixit]

Re: pacman jones suspended!!!

As a law student, that intrigues me. Sounds like a good topic for the OT board. Interesting.

Professional judges.
Professional attorneys.
Professional stenographers.
Hell, even professional bailiffs.
But the average, uneducated, untrained know-nothing Joe off the street may actually hold a person's life in their hands.

That's effed up beyond imagination.

Ummmm...go Pats!

 

[Michigan Dave]

Re: pacman jones suspended!!!

Professional judges.
Professional attorneys.
Professional stenographers.
Hell, even professional bailiffs.
But the average, uneducated, untrained know-nothing Joe off the street may actually hold a person's life in their hands.

That's effed up beyond imagination.

Ummmm...go Pats!

Well, the reasoning is that it is "a jury of your peers."

Actually, it may work in your benefit to have the uneducated on your side. They are more easily persuaded, therefore if you have a strong attorney...

But I see your point. It could never happen, but intriguing is the possibility of educated professionals with no vested interest perhaps somewhat legally competent weighing the facts of the 2 presented cases.

 

[pats-blue]

Re: pacman jones suspended!!!

So basically everyone who is associated with anyone who injures/paralyzes/kills someone else is automatically guilty? Also, follow the Tank Johnson story a little closer. There was a fatality there as well.

I will add that as a law student you will fnd out court has nothing to do with "facts" it has to do with what you can get thrown out so the jury doesn't hear it. Not going to get into a legal discussion here but what you hear in the media is rarely ALL of the "facts" and sometimes not even the "facts" at all. There is much more to this case then reported and he is a bigger douch bag than reported.

I agree that they need to keep the punishments severe going forward, but they NEVER have been totally equal so I don't know why you think there will be a problem if they aren't exact from now on either. You seem to have determined that the NFL WILL NOT be handing out stricter punishments in the future by your posts so you have pronounced the NFL hypocrites before thier resolve has been tested.

 

[Michigan Dave]

Re: pacman jones suspended!!!

No I'm a police officer with friends on the LVPD and YES HE IS GUILTY PERIOD. You need to follow the Tank story closer because the fatality has nothing to do with Johnson or why he is in prison. Nice try though.

Nothing to do with Johnson?

12-14: Johnson's house raided, 6 guns (including 2 assault rifles) siezed. William Posey, Johnson's bodyguard, is present at home, and arrested with marijuana.

12-15: Posey shot and killed by gang member.

Lets see. Drugs and guns. Gang member shooting Posey a day after house is raided. Nah. Couldn't possibly be a connection.

As for your statement that Pacman IS GUILTY PERIOD, based on hearsay, that makes me laugh a little.

 

[Fixit]

Re: pacman jones suspended!!!

Well, the reasoning is that it is "a jury of your peers."

Actually, it may work in your benefit to have the uneducated on your side. They are more easily persuaded, therefore if you have a strong attorney...

But I see your point. It could never happen, but intriguing is the possibility of educated professionals with no vested interest perhaps somewhat legally competent weighing the facts of the 2 presented cases.

"Persuasion" is my biggest problem. It has no place in a court of law. Facts, facts, and facts do, not theatrics or underhanded tricks. Professionally trained jurors would (hopefully) be immune to such things, as well as have a working knowledge of ballistics, forensics, and other real important stuff.

I realize I'm thinking in completely unrealistic terms.

 

[Michigan Dave]

Re: pacman jones suspended!!!

I will add that as a law student you will fnd out court has nothing to do with "facts" it has to do with what you can get thrown out so the jury doesn't hear it. Not going to get into a legal discussion here but what you hear in the media is rarely ALL of the "facts" and sometimes not even the "facts" at all. There is much more to this case then reported and he is a bigger douch bag than reported.

I agree that they need to keep the punishments severe going forward, but they NEVER have been totally equal so I don't know why you think there will be a problem if they aren't exact from now on either. You seem to have determined that the NFL WILL NOT be handing out stricter punishments in the future by your posts so you have pronounced the NFL hypocrites before thier resolve has been tested.

I understand how our court system works. I do not know the facts of the Jones case any more than anyone else here knows them. Therefore, all of our opinions are able to be founded on common ground. If more relevant facts come to light, I'd definitely be willing to reconsider my stance.

Regarding the punishments, I am certainly skeptical about the NFL's ability to hand out consistent punishment. I hope that they are willing to stick to it, but I see overwhelming public sentiment for Jones to be punished quite harshly, and think that players in similar situations in the future may not have such overwhelming backlash on their side. We'll see. If I am wrong, I will have no problems conceding.

 

[Crazy Patriot Guy]

Re: pacman jones suspended!!!

Michigan Dave, IMO you can't have fair punishment until you have an unfair punishment. Someone will always have to be the scapegoat when it's time get strict. Pacman Jones is a good person to start a strict policy with.

Also, it seems that all people are talking about in reference to Jones and his suspension is the strip club thing. In just two years in the NFL, Jones has been arrested or questioned ten times. He is choosing to keep putting himself in bad situations, that's why IMO he is being suspended. He's actually been quoted as saying he would choose his old friends over the NFL if forced to.

It's like the Florida teacher sex scandal. She gets probation and then turns around and starts texting the student again while she's still on the courthouse steps. She made that choice.

That's why Jones and Henry are different cases compared to Tank Johnson and Ray Lewis and others. I don't think the NFL is trying to start a policy to cut players hands off if they get arrested once. I think the NFL is looking to get rid of the guys like Henry and Jones that don't seem to even attempt to change their acts.

 

[Asante4prez]

Re: pacman jones suspended!!!

If this is all Pacman gets for that incident hes lucky.I have lost all faith in the american judicial system if this guy is walking around with just a slap on the wrist...Make it rain!!!!!!...ahah what an idiot

 

[Michigan Dave]

Re: pacman jones suspended!!!

Michigan Dave, IMO you can't have fair punishment until you have an unfair punishment. Someone will always have to be the scapegoat when it's time get strict. Pacman Jones is a good person to start a strict policy with.

Also, it seems that all people are talking about in reference to Jones and his suspension is the strip club thing. In just two years in the NFL, Jones has been arrested or questioned ten times. He is choosing to keep putting himself in bad situations, that's why IMO he is being suspended. He's actually been quoted as saying he would choose his old friends over the NFL if forced to.

You know, this is the compelling reason for his suspension. If the NFL really does suspend accordingly going forward, I can buy this argument.

It's like the Florida teacher sex scandal. She gets probation and then turns around and starts texting the student again while she's still on the courthouse steps. She made that choice.

That's why Jones and Henry are different cases compared to Tank Johnson and Ray Lewis and others. I don't think the NFL is trying to start a policy to cut players hands off if they get arrested once. I think the NFL is looking to get rid of the guys like Henry and Jones that don't seem to even attempt to change their acts.

I like the Leonard Little example better. He killed someone due to his poor choice, and then when given another opportunity, made the same decision again. I do not have remorse for that. If I'm Pacman, I'm jumping up and down and pointing at Little when I read my suspension letter.

 

[pats-blue]

Re: pacman jones suspended!!!

Nothing to do with Johnson?

12-14: Johnson's house raided, 6 guns (including 2 assault rifles) siezed. William Posey, Johnson's bodyguard, is present at home, and arrested with marijuana.

12-15: Posey shot and killed by gang member.

Lets see. Drugs and guns. Gang member shooting Posey a day after house is raided. Nah. Couldn't possibly be a connection.

As for your statement that Pacman IS GUILTY PERIOD, based on hearsay, that makes me laugh a little.

It is not hearsay...I know people that are involved in the case and know the facts. That is NOT hearsay.

Second none of the guns seized was used in the shooting (one point of yours gone) Posey arrested with marijuana...hhmm shooting had nothing to do with marijuana unless Posey was high when shot still (second point of yours gone..still not sure how Posey possessing marijuana is "connected" to the fatality the next day or how you have reached the conclusion that is somehow connected to Tank (who wasn't at the house when Posey was found there by the way)

Lastly and this is a beaut...."12-15: Posey shot and killed by gang member." and this is "connected" to Tank how? A police officer I was friends with was shot and killed by a gang memeber also...so are you saying I am responsible or "connected" to my friends murder also? Wow.

No question Tank is a loser and hangs around with losers and hope somehow they punish him more....but you lost your arguement and never should have compared the two. You need to re-read your post...if this was connect the dots you would have a blank page as far as connecting the fatality to Tank.

 

[Michigan Dave]

Re: pacman jones suspended!!!

It is not hearsay...I know people that are involved in the case and know the facts. That is NOT hearsay.

I know people in the NFL, and the Players Union who are close with Jones and know his side of the story as well. It's still hearsay.

Second none of the guns seized was used in the shooting (one point of yours gone) Posey arrested with marijuana...hhmm shooting had nothing to do with marijuana unless Posey was high when shot still (second point of yours gone..still not sure how Posey possessing marijuana is "connected" to the fatality the next day or how you have reached the conclusion that is somehow connected to Tank (who wasn't at the house when Posey was found there by the way)

I never said that the guns were involved in the shooting, or that Johnson was involved in the shooting. We have evidence to make a reasonable connection that a house that was filled with weapons (including assault rifles) being raided 24 hours before the death of a person arrested can be linked to more than coincidence. Some sketchy associations. I never implicated that Johnson was involved in killing Posey, rather that whatever they were involved in could possibly be linked. It's not far-fetched.

Lastly and this is a beaut...."12-15: Posey shot and killed by gang member." and this is "connected" to Tank how? A police officer I was friends with was shot and killed by a gang memeber also...so are you saying I am responsible or "connected" to my friends murder also? Wow.

What are gang members generally into? Drugs and guns. Again, I was drawing a reasonable conclusion.

No question Tank is a loser and hangs around with losers and hope somehow they punish him more....but you lost your arguement and never should have compared the two. You need to re-read your post...if this was connect the dots you would have a blank page as far as connecting the fatality to Tank.

Bingo. You actually made my argument here. Tank is a loser and hangs around with losers. Those are your words. The same can be said about Jones. He has chosen his associations poorly. He did not pull the trigger any more than Johnson pulled a trigger. He associated with the wrong crowd, and was in the wrong place at the wrong time (by choice). Johnson just happened to not be there at the time.

 

[Crazy Patriot Guy]

Re: pacman jones suspended!!!

I agree that Leonard Little is scum for doing the same thing again after killing a woman.

However, the commish has just taken the job and is going to punish the players that are doing things right now and in the future. The best way I can put it is a new boss at a place of business. They'll have their own set of rules and standards but I doubt they are going to punish people for breaking one of their rules three years before they came on.

 

[Dragda]

Re: pacman jones suspended!!!

The NEXT time PacMan gets in trouble with the law, he'll have to take his shoe off to count it.

Is this some type of new field sobriety test?

 

[Michigan Dave]

Re: pacman jones suspended!!!

I agree that Leonard Little is scum for doing the same thing again after killing a woman.

However, the commish has just taken the job and is going to punish the players that are doing things right now and in the future. The best way I can put it is a new boss at a place of business. They'll have their own set of rules and standards but I doubt they are going to punish people for breaking one of their rules three years before they came on.

Right- you cannot retroactively suspend someone. But if you are going to punish someone this harshly to "set a precedent," you damn well better stick to that going forward. Henry's suspension being lighter is a big question mark for me.

 

[Isaac]

Re: pacman jones suspended!!!

Well, while I appreciate the legal/ethical questions being discussed, I for one am quite pleased about these suspensions. I find it very hard to root for criminals, particularly those that haven't been adequately punished. If Goodell can clean up the league through harsh suspensions, it'll be much more enjoyable to watch. I want my rooting to be based on players I like or don't like or benefit to the patriots, rather than which team has fewer scumbags. I want to hate guys like Manning and Marino, because they are good, rather than low-lifes like R. Lewis with blood on their hands. Unfortunately they can't go back in time and suspend/banish low-lifes like R. Lewis, but at least moving forward we can hope that in order to be on that field you've got to obey basic rules of society.

 

[pats-blue]

Re: pacman jones suspended!!!

I know people in the NFL, and the Players Union who are close with Jones and know his side of the story as well. It's still hearsay.



I never said that the guns were involved in the shooting, or that Johnson was involved in the shooting. We have evidence to make a reasonable connection that a house that was filled with weapons (including assault rifles) being raided 24 hours before the death of a person arrested can be linked to more than coincidence. Some sketchy associations. I never implicated that Johnson was involved in killing Posey, rather that whatever they were involved in could possibly be linked. It's not far-fetched.



What are gang members generally into? Drugs and guns. Again, I was drawing a reasonable conclusion.



Bingo. You actually made my argument here. Tank is a loser and hangs around with losers. Those are your words. The same can be said about Jones. He has chosen his associations poorly. He did not pull the trigger any more than Johnson pulled a trigger. He associated with the wrong crowd, and was in the wrong place at the wrong time (by choice). Johnson just happened to not be there at the time.

except Jones made threats to the effect which were carried out a short time earlier by an associate of his (which he denies knowing, whichif you believe that I have a bridge to sell you).

If you think talking to the detectives doing the investigation and interviewed witnesses including Jones is equal to talking to players that are "close to Jones" it is hopeless. Jones has proven to be deceptive to say the least, I call him a liar. My friends aren't liars, personally the third or fourth hand information you are getting has one glaring weakness...it is from a liar and someone that is trying to save his own skin or you can believe the people that are doing the investigation hhhmmm is that really a tough choice?

As far as the Johnson stuff goes hey you don't have to tell me of the connection of drugs gangs and lowlife violence I agree. It is just the rediculouness of the connections you drew to the Jones case that I am pointing out. Tank had nothing to do with his lowlife friends shooting. Jones had EVERYTHING to do with what happened that night in Vegas. You seem to be discounting him bouncing a womens head off the stage and the threats he made to the guard that was shot. Tank got jail time at least, Jones I hope gets the same or worse personally.

 

[Michigan Dave]

Re: pacman jones suspended!!!

except Jones made threats to the effect which were carried out a short time earlier by an associate of his (which he denies knowing, whichif you believe that I have a bridge to sell you).

If you think talking to the detectives doing the investigation and interviewed witnesses including Jones is equal to talking to players that are "close to Jones" it is hopeless. Jones has proven to be deceptive to say the least, I call him a liar. My friends aren't liars, personally the third or fourth hand information you are getting has one glaring weakness...it is from a liar and someone that is trying to save his own skin or you can believe the people that are doing the investigation hhhmmm is that really a tough choice?

So my friends are liars, but yours aren't because they are conducting an investigation? I have great respect for law enforcement, but to insinuate that those investigating are 100% truthful, or that law enforcement/prosecutors sometimes don't go out of their way to charge high profile cases, well, you may be buying that bridge back. I will take the statement I've heard from Jones through my friends as credibly as the statements from the LVPD. The truth is probably somewhere in between.

If you've ever run in NFL circles, which I have, you'll know there are a lot of low-life "hangers on" who exist basically to blow the ego of the athlete. I can totally see Jones making some stupid threat out of anger (like you and I would make in an altercation) and a member of his "posse" acting on it to impress the big man somehow. It's why the NFL stresses the importance of choosing character in those you associate yourself with, as they are an extension of your public persona.

As far as the Johnson stuff goes hey you don't have to tell me of the connection of drugs gangs and lowlife violence I agree. It is just the rediculouness of the connections you drew to the Jones case that I am pointing out. Tank had nothing to do with his lowlife friends shooting. Jones had EVERYTHING to do with what happened that night in Vegas. You seem to be discounting him bouncing a womens head off the stage and the threats he made to the guard that was shot. Tank got jail time at least, Jones I hope gets the same or worse personally.

The only reason I brought up Johnson is because he is sitting in jail. I linked the crimes loosely just because it is a bad situation- that's it. You're correct, the situations are different. But from the league's perspective, millions of people saw one of their players led to the courthouse to report for his sentence. Pacman has no such sentence. He is an alleged party in a heinous crime at this point.

 

[pats-blue]

Re: pacman jones suspended!!!

So my friends are liars, but yours aren't because they are conducting an investigation? I have great respect for law enforcement, but to insinuate that those investigating are 100% truthful, or that law enforcement/prosecutors sometimes don't go out of their way to charge high profile cases, well, you may be buying that bridge back. I will take the statement I've heard from Jones through my friends as credibly as the statements from the LVPD. The truth is probably somewhere in between.

If you've ever run in NFL circles, which I have, you'll know there are a lot of low-life "hangers on" who exist basically to blow the ego of the athlete. I can totally see Jones making some stupid threat out of anger (like you and I would make in an altercation) and a member of his "posse" acting on it to impress the big man somehow. It's why the NFL stresses the importance of choosing character in those you associate yourself with, as they are an extension of your public persona.





The only reason I brought up Johnson is because he is sitting in jail. I linked the crimes loosely just because it is a bad situation- that's it. You're correct, the situations are different. But from the league's perspective, millions of people saw one of their players led to the courthouse to report for his sentence. Pacman has no such sentence. He is an alleged party in a heinous crime at this point.

No I am not calling your friends liars....but thier "facts" are what Jones wants them to hear. my Friends however talked to the witnesses, victims people that were there and Jones himself. You need to read my post again I didn't call your friends liars I called Jones a liar. Let me pose this question to you. After even the basic facts reported in the media if you think he DOESN'T know the shooter then by all means he isn't a liar...but find me ONE reasonable person that doesn't believe he doesn't know the guy that was holding his money bag that he was sitting next to and that got into his vehicle with him.

You know what I always hear how "I respect cops...but". You know what, I have met, encountered many athletes and know many cops that have also. If they give a break, bad cop if they charge the guy cop out to make a name. Give me a break, they are investigating a crime in LV they could care less who he is.

 

[pats-blue]

Re: pacman jones suspended!!!

So my friends are liars, but yours aren't because they are conducting an investigation? I have great respect for law enforcement, but to insinuate that those investigating are 100% truthful, or that law enforcement/prosecutors sometimes don't go out of their way to charge high profile cases, well, you may be buying that bridge back. I will take the statement I've heard from Jones through my friends as credibly as the statements from the LVPD. The truth is probably somewhere in between.

Wow I just read this again. So you have great respect for law enforcment but you find Jones just as trustworthy as the police. WOW. Take the blinders off man. I will tell you my friends would be welcome in my house any day of the week, you want to invite "pac" over to your house by all means go ahead. Maybe he can bounce a female friend of yours head off a table since it doesn't seem to be such a big deal to you and he isn't responsible for his actions it seems. Wow "pacman" is as trustworthy as the police...HAHAHAHAHAHAHA....

Oh and my friends don't get into trouble like "pac" does....seems he can't always blame someone else for the crime....didn't his MOM take the fall for some marijuana of his a while back??? This is hilrious, maybe he should apply for the police department since he is as trustworthy as the police. Don't worry I will never by that bridge back...

 

[Gwedd]

Well,

I am happy to see the Commish putting his foot down. For awhile last year I was wondering what color stripes the Bengals would be wearing. Orange & Black or White & Black.

Seriously, though, it's about time. These players are supposed to be role models, and they are whether they like it or not. Yeah, they are human, and prone to the same foibles and failings e all are. But they are held to a higher standard of behaviour because of WHO they are. because they draw down huge salaries, more money than most folks will see in a lifetime. We hold them up as examples for our kids, of how to play a violent game yet still remain friends, what sportsmanship and fair play is supposed to be.

Then we get examples like those clowns, and when they get off with a lighter sentence than anyone else would in the same situation, then that right there destroys years of good work by every other player.

I have no problem with a team circling the wagons on a player while he is under investigation. We have a presumption of innocence in this country and we should never deny that to anyone for any reason. However, once the facts are clear, or a jury or judge has rendered a verdict, then it's a whole new ballgame. Everyone can understand giving someone a second chance, but these fellows are repeaters. They deserve what the commissioner handed down, and maybe more.

Respects,