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Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Harry Boy, Jan 28, 2012.

  1. PatriotsReign

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    #18 Jersey

    I strongly agree with you and Drewski in this regard. When I was in the 3rd grade, our teacher had contests to see who could do the best. We'd be given math problems and the first one who finished the problem correctly won. In the 5th & 6th grades, they broke math and reading up into 2 classes, Advanced and...I forget the name of the other class. Maybe it was math & reading 1 & 2...but it was known to us that one class was advanced and the other was not.

    America has been built upon fiercely competitive citizens and I believe that's the right way. In a college economics class taught by a Marxist professor, we were asked, "Some cultures value relaxation, family & friends and don't care about career success. Should these people be punished by our system?"

    My answer today would be, "Well, they certainly shouldn't be rewarded by our system for such values." I have great respect for anyone who chooses to follow their values but it's their choice. We all have different challenges and obstacles to overcome to achieve whatever lifestyle we choose to pursue, but the key is, we all have to make a choice and do something.

    Competition is good, it always has been.
     
  2. Drewski

    Drewski In the Starting Line-Up

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    I should have prefaced my comment prior to by simply stating I view it as a Modern American thing - not just specific to "liberals".

    I agree that if you attempt to make everyone equal, by default you lose the "levels of society".

    Winning and losing is part of life. If you remove that as an outcome in young peoples lives, it does not equip them very well when the enter the cut throat "real world". I have always maintained that college (or vocational schools) can be as much about "education" as they are about teaching you how to meander through life; be it in your personal life or in your professional life.

    If we teach kids that no one loses and everyone wins, and how everyone's the same, we are setting them up for failure when they enter the "real world" because in the real world little Drewski isnt special, like he was told all his formative years, but is in fact just another number, unless of course he has talents which make him stand out above the noise.

    A few links to examples of this phenomena (I hope these links work):

    In School:
    The Daily Item: Homework reprieve for Swampscott students

    http://articles.courant.com/2011-10...-roll-school-principal-donna-schilke-students

    --This one is about a school not releasing the students who made the honor roll, because it is too stressful to kids who dont make it, only to turn around and do the right thing by recognizing the kids who made it.

    Student calls police after Atherton math teacher rattles table - San Jose Mercury News

    http://www.myfoxboston.com/dpp/news/local/school-bans-pink-shirts-from-pep-rally-20101117

    Manhattan mother sues elite pre-school amid claims it has damaged child's Ivy League chances | Mail Online

    In Sports:
    UPDATE: Soccer Season Canceled Over Bernie Dance, Students Protest - Perry Hall, MD Patch

    clevland.com

    Life in General:
    "I'm too pretty to do homework" T-shirt yanked - CBS News
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2012
  3. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The stupid crazy bastards tried to make everyone equal by giving mortgages to people they knew couldn't afford them now look at the mess they created, the rotten do-gooders (Barney Frank & Chris Dodd) broke those poor peoples hearts, they moved into their new homes then couldn't pay for them now they are worse off then when they started, they have been forclosed on and are back living in sh!t holes while Dodd lives the high life and Barney (smoochy) Frank is getting married to his boy friend and play around on the beaches of Maine eating lobsters.

    Stay away from the self serving feel good do-gooder they will ruin your life.

    A liberal and his slobbering sh!t can destroy you, they do it for themselves not for you.

    GOD WILLING
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2012
  4. Drewski

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    HB, there were far more hands in that cake than just to two you named. That policy was and has been in place since what? The Carter Admin..?

    While I agree that there is an issue with the policy and the unintended consequences that arose from it, to simply say the two of them did it, while not admitting that far more people; on both sides of the D/R spectrum, helped create the situation we saw a couple of years ago makes the point you are trying to make ring hollow IMHO.
     
  5. DarrylS

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    Weren't you once a poor guy from Cambridge, who needed a break in his quest for home ownership.. and then somehow you rose above all this and wound up on some family property near the ocean.. not everyone has that advantage.
     
  6. DarrylS

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    You need to learn the difference between anecdotal evidence, and what is happening to most kids.. not just a couple of kids, with whiny parents.

    You articulate about 9 examples, all the while there are millions of kids who just do stuff..
     
  7. DarrylS

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    Competition is better if there are level playing fields..

    Why don't you expose all of the marxism that is taught at UMass.. they need a hero/spokesman...
     
  8. Drewski

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    haha ok...

    Would it be wrong of me to ask if any link posted in any thread could be argued by some as merely "anecdotal"???

    Between you and Wolf it seems I need to "educated myself" on the definitions of terms; since you both so eloquently told me in so many words - "you dont know what you are talking about".

    Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right......
     
  9. PatriotsReign

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    #18 Jersey

    First off...I notice you often like to add a personal comment in your posts for whatever reason (spokesman). Something I don't do in my replies to you. So my question is do you somehow feel better after you do it? It's typically a way to make someone feel superior...but I know you don't feel that way Darryl.

    Now, on to relevant issues....

    "Level playing fields" sounds all nice & warm & fuzzy, but it isn't realistic. To have a level playing field, no one would grow up in poverty...as a matter of fact, everyone would grow up in similar environments. No parent would abuse their kids or get divorced...no parent would become an alcoholic or drug addict and all school systems would have the same quality from top to bottom.

    But none of the above will or can ever happen, so we all have to deal with the cards that are dealt to us and some hands are stacked while others don't even have a pair of dueces.

    Now we can work to make the field a little more level, but that's about the best we can do. Then we must consider costs and benefit to society. Should we invest more into education than our military? I think we can say that it should at least be MORE equal...there is no doubt about that.

    But some kids will always have to work harder than others. It may be a tough pill to swallow, but it's reality. Some will always have the "right connections" to succeed in life and there is nothing society can do about that.

    It really comes back to what our parents always told us...and that's "Life isn't fair, get used to it"
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2012
  10. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    #24 Jersey

    I don't have a problem with "no score keeping" at the youngest level. I mean, think about it, we want them to learn how to play, not how to win in the beginning, don't we? Shouldn't they be allowed to learn the game first?

    We all have sex eventually, don't we? But we don't want them teaching our pre-schoolers or our kindergardeners sex education.

    In other words, there's time enough to learn about competition and the supreme importance of winning just like there's time enough to learn about beastiality and how to avoid pregnancy.

    One step at a time.

    I also don't see the point of things like dodgeball in the lower grades, either. It simply introduces bullying and fear in individuals too young to know how to make the best of whatever gifts they've had bestowed upon them other than their physical size and emotional make-up.

    If a high school gym teacher thinks it's necessary, for whatever reason, to play the game, make it voluntary, fer cryin' out loud.

    What kind of a grade can you give for dodgeball, anyhow?
     
  11. PatriotsReign

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    #18 Jersey

    I think dodgeball is a stupid game for young kids to play. I recall throwing that ball as hard as I could at other kids...and some would return the favor.

    That was in 5th & 6th grade which is prolly old enough to learn to be competitive, but not by playing dodgeball. If you weren't looking, you could get smacked in the face....a tad too dangerous in my opinion.

    Maybe by combining intellectual and physical competition? That way, the geeks could get theirs too!;)

    But many kids lack both physical and intellectual advanced skills and I don't know what the answer is for them.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2012
  12. Drewski

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    I dont disagree with you on the entry level age groups - the little ones should be there to learn the activity first.

    But when HS teams forfeit because they are "too good" or a young football player is "banned" from scoring TDs because he is so much better than the kids he is playing with?? I just find that odd..

    I think the bans on dodgeball/kickball/"fill in the blank" ball had more to do with the not being able to play on school property (such as on recess) as opposed to within a classroom (P.E.) setting. I agree there is no grade for dodgeball et al.

    There is a fine line in my opinion between keeping kids safe (no red rover or other games which could have injuries associated with them) and "protecting" kids from inequalities in the school yard.

    If "little Billy" is the last kid picked for kick ball because he sucks relative to the other kids who were picked before him and that upsets him, his parents should work with him to find an alternative activity that he excels at; whether it is physical in nature or not.

    Instead we get whiny parents (stealing Darryl's fitting term) who complain loud enough that the school "bans" kickball because it hurts the last kid picked feelings....

    Every generation has has kids who were good at X and kids who werent good at X, but maybe they were good at Y. In the past this was accepted and the kid who wasnt as good would either strive to be better or find another activity. Now we (the community) say that it isnt fair to one kid to suck so no one can play the game.

    In the words of Judge Smails:
    "The world needs ditch diggers too...."
     
  13. DarrylS

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    And those stuck in the middle..
     
  14. Drewski

    Drewski In the Starting Line-Up

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    Touche Sir!!! (Although thats were I was putting myself :) )
     
  15. PatriotsReign

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    #18 Jersey

    And the catch that wraps it all up is that whether one is a joker, a clown or somewhere in between, none is more righteous than another (see signature).

    We all havea a right to our opinions.

    So there!:p
     
  16. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    #24 Jersey

    I also wonder how wide spread such occurances are. I tend to think they are few and far between, otherwise why would they make the news?

    The "news" is, after all, information about the unusual.

    Agreed - but again, how often does this occur?

    There are approximately 100,000 schools in the United States. How many articles are there about schools "banning" kickball?

    Fast Facts

    Yes, the world does. But don't you think that people like Newt degrade those jobs when they insist that you can hire a 3rd grader to replace them?
    How needed does that make a grown up janitor or ditch digger feel? How hard to do you he's going to work once he's aware that his value as a man is equated with the value of a 9 year old? How much pride will he feel in doing his job the best he can?

    The mere addition of the word "too," is a subtle put down, isn't it? It strongly implies that "Well, we can't all have a good job, but that's ok. Sucks to be you."

    Wouldn't a better way of saying it be, simply, "The world needs ditch diggers."
     
  17. Drewski

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    I will fully admit that I dont know how widespread this phenomena is...I guess I just went with anecdotal evidance :rolleyes:

    The last quote is from Caddyshack....perhaps you have seen it...

    The quote isnt putting people down, it is simply acknowledging the fact that world is made up of people (and jobs) that have different prerequisites to fill...this isnt about My Pet Newt (or any other politician for that matter). This about in life there will be judges, athletes, writers, bankers, attorney's, hamburger flippers, toilet cleaners, toll takers and yes ditch diggers. One isnt better than the other (outside of what you get paid to do it), just simply that some people will fill one job better than another.

    I can write a mean SQL code....but ask me to write a book?!?!?! Forget about it.

    I can solve tons of problems in the day-to-day of my job....but my 40 time? Ya, they clock that with a sun dial.

    It is the fact that all people are born with different talents. Some people are good at sports, others cant hit a barn with a baseball. Some people are good with computers, others cant spell SQL. Some people have the physical strength to do manual labor, others get calluses. Some have the interest, drive and desire to go to school for 20 years to be a doctor (and are financially rewarded as such), others arent interested or inclined to do so, and are completely satisfied with "a job that has the least amount of responsibility" they can find (another movie quote).

    I am putting neither down...as we need people who want the least amount of responsibility as possible just the same as we need a doctor. But when we as a society no longer celebrate the best of a given talent and instead try to "equalize" the talent; anecdotes of this previously provided, we lose one of the great American ideals (at least it seems like it was): The Idea to be better than someone else at something; whether that is better at creating steel, or railroads, or medicine, or sports or banking or law or anything else.

    Striving to be the best is at least part of what made America, America.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2012
  18. DarrylS

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    So I guess you do not know the song we are talking about, see Donald Fagan.
     
  19. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    #24 Jersey

    Tsk, tsk, tsk. :)


    I understand where you're coming from, I really do. My father, who held a lot of menial jobs in his lifetime, instilled a great work ethic because he went off to work with enthusiam, love and pride every damn day of his life. He was determined to be the best (fill in the blank) that there was and taught me to do the same, no matter what it was I ended up doing.

    But that's not all of it - and some of it can even be detrimental to some extent. We shouldn't teach our kids to just "be the best at whatever it is you end up doing," we should encourage them to strive more, I think.

    I hate to keep coming back to Newt, but his "janitor" remark really ticked me - and it's emblematic of the larger problem, I think. It does no good to make a 4th grader a janitor. Why not take the 4th graders who show exceptional ability and apprentice them to a teacher or a principal? Why pidgeonhole a job (and the kid picked to fill it) right off the bat? It's like saying, "Here, you don't know how to work because your parents don't work, therefore we have no great expectations of you being any different. But hey, we'll throw you a bone and teach you how to clean up puke."

    There are poor children out there right now who would make good doctors and great teachers and excellent lawyers, CEOs and CPAs. But their chance of becoming any of those things is really not the same as a richer kid's chance is. Education is costly. Learning needs to be fostered. Ability needs to be cultivated.

    There is an inherent inquality in being born poor. Sure, every child is naturally born equal, but the minute he/she comes home from the hospital, that equally begins being chipped away by circumstances.

    See above. Interest, drive and desire will only carry you so far. Being without money is certainly going to be a big roadblock. Can it be overcome? For some, sure. But not for all. Not by a long shot.

    You can't equalize the talent....but you can equalize the playing field. That doesn't mean accepting lesser talent or lowering standards, it simply means letting everyone play on the same field.
     
  20. PatriotsReign

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    #18 Jersey

    Yes, I know the song well. As a matter of fact, I recently used the exact same quote drewski did in a post.

    My comment was just stating fact on the left, right and middle.
     

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