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Outrage when workers want a fair deal, Outrage when the rich get taxed... ???

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by mcgraw_wv, Feb 22, 2011.

  1. mcgraw_wv

    mcgraw_wv In the Starting Line-Up

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    I am a little confused by the right. I am a Ron Paul Republican, and I do not understand most people on the right these days.

    Why is there so much venom to attack the working class in Wisconsin, all they did was negotiate the best terms they could for their jobs, collectively. And that is looked at as evil, and destroying America.

    Previously the government tries to tax the Top income earners, and the right goes ape **** over that. Who are these people on the right, and who do they honestly care about?

    This year, we are seeing a full on assault on the working class in this country and somehow the powers that be have convinced an entire ideology that they should only protect the top 1% incomes earnrs, and damn all that remains.

    I understand as a Business Owner, that I wouldn't want my employees to dictate their terms with me, however, they already do... they can leave any minute if they want too, and I am stuck finding someone to replace them.

    What is happening to our country when we stand up for the Richest of the Rich, but demand our fellow middle class workers, that they make too much, and they do not deserve any benefit they negotiated in good faith for?

    Our country needs to wake up, our incomes have been stagnant for decades, while the rich continue to grow their wealth even in bad times.

    What will it take to expect the people who are making billions off the rules, laws, and people of this country to pay a little more for their share.

    Make Government Smaller! I 100% agree, but you don't start it off by hurting the people who already make the least in the public sector....

    Crazy times...
     
  2. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    It seems to be less about common sense, and more about the demonization of specific items that are viewed as "targets" by the hard core right..

    I agree with the concept smaller government, but the currrent effort seems more at eliminating the middle class and perpetuating the divide between the rich and poor.. why do you really think they want to do away with collective bargaining?? All that is a vehicle for negotiation, and one of the major methods of empowering the folks in the middle... Koch or any of the corporatists do not want collective bargaining, this is classic union busting.

    The reality that whether it be in Wisconsin or DC these budgets have so much fat which is protected by the corporatists that any real change may never happen. As long as we allow the puppet masters, war profiteers and lobbyists influence how decisions are made in this country.. the effort will be made to go after specific areas that are viewed as evil, all the while the folks on the top are laughing all the way to the bank.

    The fourth leading contributor to the Governor of Wisconsin is Koch Industries.. the whole system is completely tainted, and anyone who really believes that this is about the will of the people is completely out of their minds.. this is about the powers to be and perpetuating the powers of those who are at the top..
     
  3. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Hall of Fame Poster

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    #18 Jersey

    I view myself as about as independent as one can get. Voted for Obama and Scott Brown.

    Now, I'll address your points.

    1. Until the current recession came upon us...followed by the publication of the details of public employee benefits due to pending state budget collapses, I never realized just how good their benefits were.

    2. They never negotiated with me or got MY approval.

    3. I now realize that public unions and politicians have been in bed for decades. I clearly understand how giving these people such deals benefitted the politicians greatly.

    The vast majority of us work in the private sector and fund public sector pay and benefits. If we look at the deals these public unions have "negotiated", it is clear that they are far, FAR better than anything that exists in the private sector. Also, why would I or anyone like me care if the people who plow our state highways, collect trash, or work in an office are employed by the public (us/we) or the private sector? Answer is, we really don't care. But we absolutely DO care about taxes and specifically, TAX INCREASES!

    Should taxpayers care about public employees working for 20 years and getting a wonderful pension funded largely by our tax dollars?

    YOU BETCHA we should care!

    So, to me, it comes down to "Is this right and is it sustainable based upon our CURRENT tax structure?

    I have a sister-in law who worked for the city of Hartford CT for 20 years. She "retired" and is now collecting a pension based upon her highest earning years AND she got a another job with another town in CT and is making around $80K working in HR. If she puts in another 20 in this town, she'll be collecting another full pension.

    Is that right? No, it's not...not in the least. But it IS a deal made fair & square behind closed doors with unions & pols. This sh1t has got to stop.

    I find it very, very easy to BLAME unions and politicians for these deals. However, it's not so easy to blame the wealthy for the tax rates they have to pay. Unless you think they have a union making their deals....

    I have ZERO interest in "helping" public sector employees by paying more taxes....not a penny mcgraw! If their pensions get cut, I don't care any more than I do that private sector employees lose money in their 401k's.

    Public sector employees deserve about the exact same amount of sympathy as private sector employees, wouldn't you agree?
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2011
  4. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You might want to check with Mr Paul as to whether he thinks public employees making deals with politicians they work for and whose campaign's they finance is a good idea.

    The unions made deals they were very happy with the problem is that the state (and many others btw) is going broke and the taxpayers want a new deal and elected this governor and legislature to renegotiate the deal.
     
  5. reflexblue

    reflexblue PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #91 Jersey

    :eat3:............................................................:eat1:................................................................................:eat2:
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2011
  6. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Hall of Fame Poster

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    #18 Jersey

    I'll raise a glass with you Flex, but it's going to be a coffee mug in my hand...please don't be offended, it's the best I can do!
     
  7. mcgraw_wv

    mcgraw_wv In the Starting Line-Up

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    Jealousy isn't a very good reason to want to take from others who put themselves in a position to earn that.

    Yes they actually did, they negotiated with the people you and others elected to do that negotiating. Are you saying that every single person needs input???

    Good Point, but it's the same with all industries, and you can't attack one, without attacking the Defense industry, Agricultural, Pharmaceutical, etc...

    Look I don't know any other these workers who are living in 4000 square ft houses, or driving a Benz... They may make more than you think they should make, but they aren't getting rich. The real problem here is Spending on all the Pork and other costs that the government pisses away. The focus should be on cleaning up the corrupt spending and waste, before we attack the working class. I'm in the private sector and I make more than most of the type of workers you just mentioned. Let's be honest here.

    I say Good for her. SMART SMART woman!!! Way to secure the best possible situation for herself given her skill set. I wish most people looked at "How", instead of "Why not me". Is it her fault? Do you want to strip her benefits for simply doing what her contract entitled her for? Or do you want to blame the Government you elected for making that deal? This is the Problem, you and others want to attack the middle class worker, and revoke their effort, as invalid compared to your own, simply becuase their end result is worth more than yours perhaps??? It's not her fault, it's your elected governments fault. And they shouldn't make deals as such in the Future. but if they have a deal in place, and the contract allows for it, I do NOT blame the workers for trying to make their deal as beneficial for themselves as possible. I would like to think I can put myself in that same situation if I could.

    Yes, but I can't blame the worker. Just as if you signed a bad deal for your business... you have to do the work you promised for the compensation agreed upon. I would expect any business I deal with to uphold their part of the bargin. After that, renoegotiate, and be prepared to not offer the services you can't staff.
     
  8. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

    Mrs.PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    Can you explain to me why the unions "making deals" and financing a political compaign is any more dangerous or distasteful than a private business entity like The Koch Brothers making a deal or financing a campaign is?

    At least a union is making a deal for some Americans - the Koch's are only in it for themselves.

    Tell me, 13 - why is one of these things ok with you and one is not when, in fact, they are probably pretty close to the same thing - neither is going to benefit you but one of them is going to benefit your neighbors - unless, of course, you are a billionaire, in which case it might work out in your favor.

    One of the reasons that private businesses pay a competitive wage is because of union wages. One of the reasons private companies give benefits like a 40 hour work week, paid vacations, paid sick leave and one of the reasons they offer safe working conditions and access to health care and retirement funds is because they must remain competitive with other businesses in the area - and those "other businesses" sometimes happen to have unions which represented their workers.

    Please don't tell me you think that busting the unions and destroying their collective bargining rights (which is not just about salary and benefits but is also about safety and fairness) is somehow going to improve conditions where you work because you, as a non-union employee, is not going to be affected.

    You are going to be affected.

    And adversely so.
     
  9. mcgraw_wv

    mcgraw_wv In the Starting Line-Up

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    Mr Paul, first and foremost preaches upholding contracts... If a contract is nothing to be respected, than what is the point of creating one? Why even have deals when contracts can be broken and discarded?

    Again, I think the free market should dictate workers value, but outside a current contract. If you ( business / government ) signed a contract to pay X amount, then I expect YOU to pay that till the end of the contract. PERIOD.
     
  10. DarrylS

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    What gets lost in all of this is that all of these contracts were negotiated by both sides, not dictated by one.. collective bargaining is not evil, it is a vehicle or a process ..

    Just about every union that I am aware of has given back, including Wisconsin. The Wisconsin unions are willing to make concessions, but the governor wants the whole package.. he does not want to negotiate in good faith.

    Was involved with negotiations for a very long time, and never once did one side get their own way.. each and every contract was give and take.

    The whole fat cat pension thing is a farce, unfortunately state pensions are skewed on the top for the fortunate sons, political appointees, judges or the top layers of any State Department.. but most of these unions are made up of office workers, blue collar workers.. not sure of the Wisconsin Union Demographics, but from where I sit the majority are women..

    There are exceptions, but the rule is much different.. I know a lot of state employee retirees, and do not know one who is living that well. Some go on to other jobs in the private sector and do well, but for the most part their lives are pretty average in terms of income..
     
  11. mcgraw_wv

    mcgraw_wv In the Starting Line-Up

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    Lies!!! They are rich, and only work 2 hours a week for it!!!
     
  12. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The money paid to political campaigns normally has 1 of 3 purposes (usually not overlapping); paying protection (donations to pols to avoid being punished by taxes/regulations); looking to get contracts from government (ie) money from government); looking to get regulatory favors from government to enhance their business.



    If we went to a flat tax and minimized (drastically reduce) the power/spending of government we would minimize all three of these problems. Welcome to the Tea Party.


    So you concern about business buying pols is well founded.


    While unions may have served a useful purpose at one time that time has ended a long time ago.



    I think this article describes the current situation very well.

    Sultan Knish a blog by Daniel Greenfield

     
  13. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    The issue here is that to the majority of tax payers, the unions don't have a fair deal. They have too good a deal. When taxpayers are footing the ever increasing government bill, while paying a portion of their own health insurance an pension, then who is it that's truly looking for something "fiar"? So basically the question is, a "Fair deal" according to whom?
     
  14. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Hall of Fame Poster

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    #18 Jersey

    I have no jealousy toward the union workers, especially toward my sister-in-law. What I'm pissed off about is that our system allowed all this to happen.

    As you know, FDR was dead against public unions...and so am I for the same reasons he was. I don't care about deals that were made or if they're broken. I care a LOT more about how our gov't can move forward with LESS of a burden upon our citizens...NOT an increased burden.

    You didn't answer my question mcgraw. Do you believe public union employess deserve more sympathy than private sector employees?

    If the future of our country is to replace public employees with private enterprises, I'm fine with that as well.

    I do not feel that maintaining the status quo of public unions is anything important. Balancing local, state & federal budgets without increasing tax rates upon the middle class is important.

    If they want to increase tax rates upon the wealthy, I'm ok with that too. But not just to maintain public sector employees and their benefits.

    BTW...I thought you were a proponent of a flat tax?
     
  15. mcgraw_wv

    mcgraw_wv In the Starting Line-Up

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    I don't really make a distinction from public unions and private unions, they are all unions... I guess in the case where private unions don't elect their Management.

    I am in favor of the Flat tax, and I am in favor of letting the Unions go on the expiration of their current contract. I am NOT for ending a contract before it comes to it's end. A contract is a contract, and it must be completed, just a cell phone contract... if Business expects me to fullfil my contracts, I expect it in reverse to hold.

    I believe our Political System is corrupt to the core, and it's always money buys the rules, this is not new...

    So I am happy that the "working people" have organized a way in order to give themselves a fighting chance against a corporation. A corporation is nothing but a union of people donating money to a candidate for the same idea of getting favors in return.


    I would think a smart solution would be to let the Bush Tax cuts expire, and reform the way Unions deals with the public sector is done.

    HOWEVER!!! - I can not seem to honestly jump on the plan to get rid of Unions when the Supreme Court just gave corporations free will to fund and buy whatever politican they want. We need people and organizations to fight for influence to balance that out.

    We need to wind down, or wind back some things that government has become over the last 15-30 years or whatnot... But the argument today sounds like we want to wind down all the power People have carved out for themselves without asking the Elite Power in this country ( CEOs of Corporations ) to do the same.
     
  16. The Brandon Five

    The Brandon Five Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    #75 Jersey

    Wisconsin, Ohio Target Government Union Contracts - Bloomberg
     
  17. mcgraw_wv

    mcgraw_wv In the Starting Line-Up

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    I'm all for it... Don't make a contract you can't keep.

    This may effect most people's lifestyles... a little more trash piling up at their house, a little more outages with some utilities, etc... We will see how well government elected officials know how to actually manage their businesses now.

    Our lives, and the services the government provides offers a very lazy cushy lifestyle on our behalf... I am all for putting in a little work on my end, like driving to the recycling center when I need too.

    But I think in the end, most people will complain, and demand these services, and then therefore, require the need to hire large amounts of employees, and therefore create another Union environment.
     
  18. reflexblue

    reflexblue PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #91 Jersey

    Because thats different, 13 worships at the alter of corporate America. I have never figured out what he is going to get out of it in the end. It doesn't benefit him. As you can see he just change the flowers.

    [​IMG]
     
  19. reflexblue

    reflexblue PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #91 Jersey

    And how does that make you feel?
     
  20. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Hall of Fame Poster

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    #18 Jersey

    probably about as good as it make you feel Flex....

    How does it make you feel?;)
     

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