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Our secondary sucks, but we need a deep threat

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by DaedalusX, Oct 31, 2011.

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  1. DaedalusX

    DaedalusX Rookie

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    It seems pretty apparent that the secondary is horrid right now. It doesn't seem like it's going to get better without serious personnel additions at cost.

    But I see another issue: if the opposing defense can pull off an amoeba defense, flood the middle of the field with defensive backs and get to Brady on coverage sacks, we cannot win. Period.

    We are the Colts now. Our defense is bad enough that our offense needs to put up 28 points a game, minimum, to survive.

    But we have no deep threat to blow the top off of the opposing defense (the Steelers made this point in post-game comments), so there's no penalty to them for flooding the middle. Which means against any top tier defense that goes the Rex Ryan route (flooding the middle), we will never put up enough points to win.

    Most teams can't pull this off because it's too difficult to cover Welker in the slot or BJGE is good enough to force them to respect the run. But we can't score enough on the teams that can without a deep threat to loosen the coverage. We'll be one and done again. Sound like any other team you know of?

    I say we dump 85 (he's useless anywhere on the field), pick up a deep threat (either trade for $$$ and picks, or pick up TO).

    If our offense is being tasked with carrying this team and we have to rebuild the entire secondary to not make that the case, we need to give it the best chance of doing so.
  2. JackBauer

    JackBauer Rookie

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    I'm not sure why they don't use Price more. He was wide open on the deep ball but Brady got happy feet, didn't set for the throw, and missed him by a mile.

    Generally, I think the whole deep threat notion is overrated. I think of equal or greater concern is the team's unwillingness to commit to a running game generally or use the assets they drafted for that very purpose. Extremely frustrating.
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2011
  3. The-Hooded-One

    The-Hooded-One Rookie

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    There is this Taylor Price guy on the roster. Maybe they should give him a f'n chance.
  4. RodThePat

    RodThePat Rookie

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    Price also made a terrible play yesterday, basically waiting for the ball instead of attacking it. He didn't get his body in a good position and allowed Polamalu to knock the ball away. He's very raw still.
  5. Sivy

    Sivy Rookie

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    Randy! Randy! Randy!

    Moss could be huge if only for the rest of this season. I dont think any teams would take him seriously, meaing he would be single covered, meaning he would destroy teams.

    I know everyone is going to come in here and say that he fell off..but the truth is, Moss is still in freakesh shape and on single coverage it would still be game over.
  6. JackBauer

    JackBauer Rookie

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    Not this again. Moss is done. Finished. Not coming back.
  7. Snake Eyes

    Snake Eyes Rookie

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    He is raw but the only way he'll ceqase to become so is with reps. he has tremendous upside, I'd like to see him get more time.
  8. Sivy

    Sivy Rookie

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    You are msot likely right..but I am certian that stranger things have happend in the nfl.
  9. SeanBruschi54

    SeanBruschi54 Rookie

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    #24 Jersey

    Its getting kind of stupid to keep blaming Ocho for things whens he's not put on the goddam field.

    If you dont get put in you cant make the plays.

    People pumping up Taylor Price heres my question. Where is he? Where is this god like figure you speak of? O THATS RIGHT HE DOESNT PLAY EITHER.

    Maybe its time to point fingers at our coaching staff when they make stupid personnel decisions randomly a few times a year.
  10. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Thought that the whole, "stretching the field" was a byproduct of bored, idle minds on message boards..
  11. RIpats88

    RIpats88 Rookie

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    taylor price is probably our most physically gifted young receiver....he has elite speed/athleticism and good hands...id love to see more of him....guy just needs more reps

    he was able to get separation on that deep play, but like was said...not a great throw from brady and price still is raw going up against a great corner in palomalu
  12. SeanBruschi54

    SeanBruschi54 Rookie

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    Really? Because Wes Welker says hello.

    Wanna know why he was so open? Because nobody gave a damn he was open. Look back on that play welker was covered along with branch and gronk. No reason to have someone carry taylor price because 1. he rarely plays 2. if hes going to make a deep threat Troy is there to cover that.

    Boom. Play over.
  13. RIpats88

    RIpats88 Rookie

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    what I mean was for a young untested receiver...Edelman is a mini welker, slater is fast, but doesnt have great hands....price has the tools to be a good reciever...hes big, fast and has good hands he showed alot of promise in the preseason before he got injured

    Price has more of an upside than Ocho if he can get the system because he is faster/has more athleticism to get open. Ochocinco is basically a more athletic branch without knowing the system as well
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2011
  14. SeanBruschi54

    SeanBruschi54 Rookie

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    #24 Jersey

    Gotcha.

    Me personally i feel im very big believer in Julian Edelman.
  15. Jangles

    Jangles PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I'm glad so many of you are beginning to notice what has been painfully obvious since Moss left.
  16. vuudu

    vuudu Rookie

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    Deep threat for what? Against good defense, Brady has no time to even throw the short passes let alone wait for some deep threat to open up.
    Anyway, on the offensive side of the ball, there was no need to get away from the run. This was just like the Jets playoff game, I thought they learnt their lesson against the Jets and Cowboys this year by running more.
    I am just confused, my confidence in the coaching stuff is just plummeting, we are making the silly mistakes that other teams use to make.
    Our ineptitude yesterday was on par with the former detriot lions, you just knew they will **** up everything, the onside kick, not challenging a call, yet Brady spending almost 30 sec to snap a ball with an empty back field again and again.

    What is good? This is the blueprint to beat us. Let us see if the coaches can correct it anytime soon.
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2011
  17. Triumph

    Triumph Rookie

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    Why would you think that?

    When you have a legitimate deep threat you force the defense to defend the long ball. Price, Ocho and Slater, nobody has stepped up and defenses are not afraid of the Pats hitting the home run.

    Just like the Jets playoff game.
  18. Jangles

    Jangles PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    lol

    Brady has plenty of time to throw. Sure he faces more pressure on a lot of plays, but there are still plenty where he gets a clean pocket and stands there for 10 seconds waiting for someone to get open.
  19. Elijah T.

    Elijah T. Rookie

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    First time poster but long time fan of team and website.

    The Pats definitely need an X receiver who can stretch the field and force bracket coverage downfield, it has become more apparent as the season has progressed. As good as Welker is, his main strength is the quick ins and outs, with the occasional seam route (intermediate) between cover 2 or 3. Branch understands zone and has great timing with Brady, but he can't seperate from man coverage or drive corners away from his destination point consistently anymore.

    Both our tight ends pose problems with size/athleticism, but they still don't force you to cover the deep half of the field, and as we saw against Pitt, you can get a quicker corner/safety to stay on their hip and make you hesitant to throw against them at times (except on crossing routes).

    But I'm not sure we have that player on the roster...Price can run, but can he get off press coverage? Does he come out of his breaks quickly enough on the deep out or deep post? Is he strong enough to win leverage consistently?

    Brady has a habit of ignoring receivers he's not comfortable with, I've noticed this in the past and then this year with Ochocinco, and even occasionaly with Hernandez or Gronkowski depending on which side of the field he decides to throw to...

    Somehow Price and Ochocinco need to get more involved downfield, because there's only so much you can do underneath without a strong running game.

    Shane Vereen. He's the player that can expand our offense if he can get on the field. He isn't a deep threat, but he's a gifted runner with excellent change of direction ability. Hopefully he gets some reps.
  20. RIpats88

    RIpats88 Rookie

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    the thing is, having a deep threat, just like establishing the run...it keeps the opposing defense honest...they know if theres a guy who can burn his man, they cant clog the middle of the field and that leaves guys like welker, the TE's open....this past game, they just clogged the middle and our WR on the end arent fast enough to create separation.

    to be successful in this offense you either need to use your athleticism to create enough separation from your man, or have the football IQ in the system to be able to get yourself open...ocho doesnt have the elite athleticism to beat his man one on one up the field, so he needs to learn the system in order to get open....which is why I think Taylor Price is worth a shot, or to take a flyer on Moss
  21. Trycked

    Trycked Rookie

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    Actually your point #2 is flawed, Troy wasn't always there, epecially on the play when Price should've had a touchdown pass but instead had to come back on an underthrown pass from a rushed Brady. And, since no one gives a damn about him, all the more reasons to go to him (more than just once per game) until he shows that he cannot play.

    Also Pats FANS need to take a deep breath and relax. It's only a regular season loss, their second, on the road, to a division leader. Although it was after a bye week, it's not the same type of bye week compared to past years thanks to the new CBA. And given how bad the Pats played, they STILL had a chance for the win in the final 5 minutes. Sometimes a loss can serve as better motiviation for improvement than a win (ie blowout win against the Jets).

    So, in Bill I WILL ALWAYS trust.
  22. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You were doing fine until you got to the second paragraph and lost your mind.
  23. NG Pats Fan

    NG Pats Fan Rookie

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    We could REALLY use a deep threat

    It's starting to hurt our offense. We simply have no one fast enough, tall enough, or skilled enough to consistently get open deep. Let's face it guys, this defense is awful. They are going to stay awful. Many years of wasted draft picks by Bill on the D have put on D in shambles. It's our offense that will keep us afloat. However, our Offense has been struggling lately. If we cannot get out offensive back to the jauggernaut it once was, we have no shot at the superbowl.
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2011
  24. Dutchmaster617

    Dutchmaster617 Rookie

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    Re: We could REALLY use a deep threat

    They should have gotten Vincent Jackson, everyone was against it, but Chad isn't the best leader himself, nor are our draft picks so important. Also Chad and Ellis make a lot of money to wear jerseys, so money is not an excuse.
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2011
  25. NEPatriot

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    Re: We could REALLY use a deep threat

    Hard to get open deep when Brady doesn't have the time. We keep forcing these medium and long routes when he no time. Play small ball. I find O'brien to be a very mediocre play caller. We always seem to be late to make adjustments and seem unwilling to take chances early in a game. Then we play from behind with no urgency.
  26. TriplecHamp

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    Re: We could REALLY use a deep threat

    theres been plenty of times this season where Brady has all day and a half and still can't find someone. The fact that teams can pretty much come up an manhandle our receivers without having to worry about getting beat over the top is a serios probably. The long passing game hasn't been good since Randy left and it needs to be adressed yesterday but its not happening. There isn't a receiver on this team that will command double coverage down the field.
  27. BillBelichickFan79

    BillBelichickFan79 Rookie

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    Re: We could REALLY use a deep threat

    They need man-beaters at WR.

    Guys who can get off jams in press coverage, and create separation vs corners with good man to man skills. Not necessarily a deep threat.

    Welker is not an outside WR. Branch is excellent at reading and finding seams in the zone, but cannot separate vs good man coverage. Ocho is a non factor. Price and Slater are not starting caliber.

    That's why the Pats struggle against teams that play defense in the Rex/Rob Ryan mold. They play predominantly man coverage in the back end, even on blitzes. Brady picks apart zone defense and zone blitzes because him and his WR's are smart enough to read the defense and find the hole/seam. But when Brady's WR's can't separate vs man coverage, what can he do? It's out of his control. That's why he looks like he has happy feet back there. No one is open and he doesn't want to risk an INT so he keeps holding onto the ball.

    Even Moss was not a good man beater, he was strictly a fly route/deep post/endzone jump ball type of guy because he had no interest in going over the middle and wasn't a crisp route runner.
  28. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Re: We could REALLY use a deep threat

    They've needed a player who could attack the defense on the middle-deep levels for some time now.
  29. PATSYLICIOUS

    PATSYLICIOUS Rookie

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    Re: We could REALLY use a deep threat

    Price has been given a chance to contribute in 2 regular season games that I know of. 1 was the Dolphin game last year where he caught at least one long pass for the TD. 1 was yesterday where he clearly beat his guy and Brady underthrew him.
  30. RodThePat

    RodThePat Rookie

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    Re: We could REALLY use a deep threat

    We need athletic playmakers on offense. The savy-veteran who runs good routes is a fantastic complement, but you can't have an offense based solely on that kind of player. The Patriots don't necessarily need a deep threat, but they could use young guys with above-average physical skills.

    The Steelers have done exactly that. Neither Sanders nor Brown are very fast guys, but both can operate in that intermediate area of the field pretty well, and they are complemented by a smart, veteran, possession receiver in Ward, and a burner in Wallace. They completely revamped their offense in a very short period of time without spending high draft picks. There's no reason we shouldn't be able to do the same.
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