Our recent draft picks vs. the Ravens' recent draft picks

[DaBruinz]

Pats draft best player available and irrespective of the position they play, draft picks get paid by the slot they are picked.

The Ravens have picked better players than the Pats recently. It's really not hard to comprehend.

WRONG. The Pats draft best VALUE available. And there is a huge difference between best value and best player.

The Ravens have also been the worse team over the past few years.
So, picking the "better players" doesn't always result in being better. We're they better today? Yes. But the reality is that this was a rebuilding year for the Pats while the Ravens have been trying to rebuild since 2000.

 

[condon84]

First and foremost, every talent evaluator, from BB to Kiper has said that you don't get the true feel of a draft for 3 years. So, evaluating the 2008 and 2009 drafts (of which the Pats had 12 of 19 on the roster. 4 on the IR and 1 on the PS)

You forgot to add Welker and Moss to the 2007 draft.

From 2006 through 2008, the Pats had 24 draft picks. Of those 24, 11 came in the 6th or 7th round. I believe that they only have a 10% chance of making teams. The highest pick the Pats have cut is a 3rd rounder in O'Connell.

During that same period, the Ravens had 28 picks. They've hit on some and missed on others. Including 3rd round picks Yamon Figurs and David Pittman.

Below is some more information

2006 - Willie Andrews - Special teams ace for 3 years before he got in trouble in the off-season.
2006 - Le Kevin Smith - Solid back up and special teams player
2006 - Ryan O'Callaghan - Started 6 games his rookie year before injuries took their toll on him
2008 - Jonathan Wilhite - was the #2 corner by the end of his rookie year. Also started games in 2009.
2008- Matthew Slater - Special Teams ace

Brace saw action in 2 games when Wilfork was out. And he was solid, but not spectacular for a rookie. He was expected to be a project, in all honesty.

Keep in mind that when you trade for established players for draft picks, you take a bigger chunk of your salary cap to pay those established players. That has a negative effect on your team being able to pay other players going forward. Moss is getting paid and Welker has a decent salary. Now, because of that, we might not be able to keep Mankins, Wilfork, Watson, and or sign other free agents.

 

[condon84]

WRONG. The Pats draft best VALUE available. And there is a huge difference between best value and best player.

The Ravens have also been the worse team over the past few years.
So, picking the "better players" doesn't always result in being better. We're they better today? Yes. But the reality is that this was a rebuilding year for the Pats while the Ravens have been trying to rebuild since 2000.

Best player available IS best value available dumbass. I think I went over this with you.

 

[ClevTrev]

Pats draft best player available and irrespective of the position they play, draft picks get paid by the slot they are picked.

The Ravens have picked better players than the Pats recently. It's really not hard to comprehend.

Interesting that Ravens 2006 draft coming off a 6-10 record in 2005, and the 2008 draft in which they picked up Flacco coming off a 5-11 record in 2007, you'd begin to separate the two teams, as the Pats maintained a winning record through the decade. You're right, it's really not that hard to comprehend. And by the way, the Pats don't draft the best player available, haven't for years. Comprehend harder.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Re: Our recent draft picks vs the Raven's recent draft picks

When is the last time he made a big play.

I already know what you are going to say "thats not his job"

I would trade Mayo for Ray Lewis straight up. Lewis makes plays. I would trade Mayo for David Harris straight up, Harris makes plays.

You would trade Mayo (23) for Ray Lewis (34)? Really?

 

[condon84]

Interesting that Ravens 2006 draft coming off a 6-10 record in 2005, and the 2008 draft in which they picked up Flacco coming off a 5-11 record in 2007, you'd begin to separate the two teams, as the Pats maintained a winning record through the decade. You're right, it's really not that hard to comprehend. And by the way, the Pats don't draft the best player available, haven't for years. Comprehend harder.

So let me get this straight, when the Pats pick, and for example they look at their player rankings, and the player ranked #5 is available, and the next ranked player available is #12 (everyone in between has already been picked). They opt to pick the #12 ranked player or maybe lower? Please explain.

 

[DaBruinz]

Beason or Spencer instead of Merriweather. LBs are the playmakers of the defense we play. We should have picked up one of those guys instead.

I would rather take Matthews or Oher than Brace and Chung, but that's just me.

]And there go again accusing ANYONE who criticizes BB that they think they are better than BB. Dude, BB makes mistakes. You know, he's just a regular guy right?

Are you BB's son?

There you go again, being the jackarse that you love to be. I know BB makes mistakes. I've pointed them out plenty of times. But you acting so friggin holier than thou by pretending you know how those players would have developed in the Pats system is pathetic. You have no clue how they would have developed. You also fail to acknowledge what the team's holes were at the time that those picks were made. When the Pats drafted Meriweather, they had a huge need at safety. Did they have a need at LB? Yes.. That's why they tried to trade up for Stewart Bradley.

It wasn't an accusation. It was a statement. And you are the one who is acting like you are better than BB. You are the one who is acting like you know, for a fact, that Beason, Spencer, Matthews and Oher would be producing the way they are if they were on the Patriots. The REALITY is that no one here has any clue how they would be doing on the Patriots. Clearly, BB didn't feel that they would bring the needed skills to the table with the pieces that the Pats already have in place.

You can't just accept that the draft is a crap shoot and that BB does the best he can with the information he has available at the time. People like you act like BB is supposed to be clairvoyant and KNOW who is going to excel and who is going to fail.

Since BB took over this franchise, they've had 10 drafts with 9 1st round picks (none in 2000/2009 and 2 in 2004). All of them have been meaningful players. He's also had 12 2nd round picks. 13 if you include the one traded as part of the Welker signing. and a 14th as part of the Dillon trade. 5 of those picks occured in the last 2 years. Of the other 9, only 1 was a complete bust. Chad Jackson. Bethel Johnson was injured too much. And Marquise Hill was buried behind Seymour and Green. But even his team mates said he was great at getting them ready for games by impersonating players like Taylor and Freeney.

What happened the 10 years prior? In those 10 years, the Pats had 14 first round picks. And we got guys like, Ray Agnew, Eugene "Don't Call me Patrick" Chung, Pat Harlow, Chris Canty.

Do the Pats need to do something about how they draft and develop linebackers? Sure. Never said they didn't. But the reality is that NONE of us know how those players would develop in the Pats system or if Clay Matthews would have been the next Chris Singleton or Andy Katzenmoyer. Or if Oher would have been the next Pat Harlow. So, lets stop pretending like we could have done better.

 

[JMarr]

I love it when people say BB's recent drafts have been good, and as proof point to:

1. Mayo, who won DROY last year. Yes, Mayo was a good pick and he was great last year and solid this year, even after coming off a knee injury. However, this is the least you would expect of the 10th player taken in the draft.

2. Snagged Vollmer, and Edelman as a late round pick--both total studs. Newsflash: Every team in the NFL unearths at least 1 diamond in the rough every single year. BB is not the only coach that finds these types of players.

Saying we couldn't have done better in drafting is just asinine--pure unadulterated BB ballwashing.

 

[j00fek]

mayo was not solid this yr, bad sophomore yr

 

[DaBruinz]

So let me get this straight, when the Pats pick, and for example they look at their player rankings, and the player ranked #5 is available, and the next ranked player available is #12 (everyone in between has already been picked). They opt to pick the #12 ranked player or maybe lower? Please explain.

Their player rankings aren't done by best player available. They are done by best VALUE available. This is what you don't seem to understand.

It seems pretty clear that your understanding of how the Pats break down their draft board is lacking. And so, you are speaking from a position of ignorance. They don't list out the players in a Top 750 list like they do on ESPN or NFLDraftScout.com. Why don't you head over to the Draft Forum and look up Shmessy's stuff on Draft Groupings. It would help out your understanding and mike actually allow you to have a educated conversation with people on the subject.

 

[jsull87]

Re: Our recent draft picks vs the Raven's recent draft picks

ironically Harbaugh just praised the Patriots drafting and said the Ravens model themselves after the way the Patriots draft

shhhh u can't say things like this after a loss... you know the drill we loose and we are basicallt the st louis rams to these people. you think we couod get a 2nd rounder for brady? judging by this game he clearly has lost it (before you laugh i heard another poster saying we should cut moss... because he would like to see us replace him with tenacious recievers... true logic at its best)

 

[DaBruinz]

Best player available IS best value available dumbass. I think I went over this with you.

You clearly don't know what you are talking about. They are NOT the same.

Best PLAYER available refers to JUST the players abilities regardless of position. (This is how Detroit, under Millen, drafted WRs 3 out of 4 years from 2004 through 2007)

Drafting by position means that a team drafts the TOP RATED player at a particular position based solely on the need of the team. So, if the team needs a RT, they will reach for that RT just to ensure they get it.

Best VALUE available refers to the players tangibles, intangibles, and the NEEDS OF THE TEAM.

If you knew a damn thing about the Patriots style of drafting, you'd know this.

As I said in my other post, you are clearly talking from a point of ignorance because you don't understand the differences or how the Pats actually set up their draft boards.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

You clearly don't know what you are talking about. They are NOT the same.

Best PLAYER available refers to JUST the players abilities regardless of position. (This is how Detroit, under Millen, drafted WRs 3 out of 4 years from 2004 through 2007)

Drafting by position means that a team drafts the TOP RATED player at a particular position based solely on the need of the team. So, if the team needs a RT, they will reach for that RT just to ensure they get it.

Best VALUE available refers to the players tangibles, intangibles, and the NEEDS OF THE TEAM.

If you knew a damn thing about the Patriots style of drafting, you'd know this.

As I said in my other post, you are clearly talking from a point of ignorance because you don't understand the differences or how the Pats actually set up their draft boards.

I find it ironic that you manage to use the word ignorant just about every time you post. That and acting like you're part of the Pats inner circle when it comes to drafting. What time tommorrow is BB going to call you to go over the offseason plans?

 

[SoonerPatriot]

Re: Our recent draft picks vs the Raven's recent draft picks

shhhh u can't say things like this after a loss... you know the drill we loose and we are basicallt the st louis rams to these people. you think we couod get a 2nd rounder for brady? judging by this game he clearly has lost it (before you laugh i heard another poster saying we should cut moss... because he would like to see us replace him with tenacious recievers... true logic at its best)

Yeah I'm sure Harbaugh, at this very moment, is contemplating the awe and reverence he has for the last 4 or 5 Patriots drafts on the way back to Baltimore. He's wetting himself.

 

[Bertil]

I find it ironic that you manage to use the word ignorant just about every time you post. That and acting like you're part of the Pats inner circle when it comes to drafting. What time tommorrow is BB going to call you to go over the offseason plans?

When you know everything, everyone else seems ignorant. Can't you tell how smart someone is by looking at their post count?

 

[Schmo]

There you go again, being the jackarse that you love to be. I know BB makes mistakes. I've pointed them out plenty of times. But you acting so friggin holier than thou by pretending you know how those players would have developed in the Pats system is pathetic. You have no clue how they would have developed. You also fail to acknowledge what the team's holes were at the time that those picks were made. When the Pats drafted Meriweather, they had a huge need at safety. Did they have a need at LB? Yes.. That's why they tried to trade up for Stewart Bradley.

It wasn't an accusation. It was a statement. And you are the one who is acting like you are better than BB. You are the one who is acting like you know, for a fact, that Beason, Spencer, Matthews and Oher would be producing the way they are if they were on the Patriots. The REALITY is that no one here has any clue how they would be doing on the Patriots. Clearly, BB didn't feel that they would bring the needed skills to the table with the pieces that the Pats already have in place.

You can't just accept that the draft is a crap shoot and that BB does the best he can with the information he has available at the time. People like you act like BB is supposed to be clairvoyant and KNOW who is going to excel and who is going to fail.

Since BB took over this franchise, they've had 10 drafts with 9 1st round picks (none in 2000/2009 and 2 in 2004). All of them have been meaningful players. He's also had 12 2nd round picks. 13 if you include the one traded as part of the Welker signing. and a 14th as part of the Dillon trade. 5 of those picks occured in the last 2 years. Of the other 9, only 1 was a complete bust. Chad Jackson. Bethel Johnson was injured too much. And Marquise Hill was buried behind Seymour and Green. But even his team mates said he was great at getting them ready for games by impersonating players like Taylor and Freeney.

What happened the 10 years prior? In those 10 years, the Pats had 14 first round picks. And we got guys like, Ray Agnew, Eugene "Don't Call me Patrick" Chung, Pat Harlow, Chris Canty.

Do the Pats need to do something about how they draft and develop linebackers? Sure. Never said they didn't. But the reality is that NONE of us know how those players would develop in the Pats system or if Clay Matthews would have been the next Chris Singleton or Andy Katzenmoyer. Or if Oher would have been the next Pat Harlow. So, lets stop pretending like we could have done better.

It's a bad sign if you are a true Patriots fan (judging by your involvement on this board, I would say you are) and believe this. That just means you're used to mediocre drafting. I brought up that "experts" seem to know who is going to excel better than the Pats. Sure, our style of play may require certain players, but we consistently miss on truly excellent players. If you actually think the draft is a crap shoot, I would say that THAT is rather ignorant. Sure, there's no sure way of knowing for sure who will be a great NFL player, but there is a process called scouting which is meant to minimize the margin of error. I think the majority of people disagreeing with you believe that the Patriots could be better at gauging players abilities.

 

[PromisedLand]

Did you see the game? Suggs, Rice, Johnson, Ngata, the entire Ravens' OL. All Ravens' draft picks within the last five years. All made major plays or contributions today.

What did our recent draft picks do? Mayo couldn't get off blocks or make one-on-one tackles. The Ravens ran right at him. Merriweather took the James Sanders class of tackling angles. Maroney was a non-factor. And all the other draft picks didn't even play.

Sure, I saw the game. I was trying to get the thread back on track. And I don't disagree. I believe I said earlier in this thread that the only impact player I can think of that the Pats have drafted in recent years is Vince Wilfork, and I will also count Randy Moss and Wes Welker as great uses of draft picks, if not actual picks.

BTW, I would define "impact player" as one that other teams need to routinely game plan against. Randy Moss, Wes Welker, and Tom Brady and perhaps Wilfork are the only ones on the Pats right now. When I think of the Super Bowl winning teams, the impact players who were drafted by this regime were Richard Seymour (6th pick overall) and Tom BradY (whom even BB/SP admit was a lucky pick). I will give a halfhearted nod to Asante Samuel. Other than that (and help me out here) have there been ANY other impact draft picks in the past 9 years?

The other impact players on those teams were Parcell's picks - (Ty Law, Lawyer Milloy, Tedy Bruschi, Troy Brown, Willie McGinest) - or free agents (Cory Dillon, Rodney Harrison), and even a (gasp) Bobby Grier pick, Kevin Faulk). (Ted Washington - was he a free agent or a draft pick trade?)

A lot of other pre-2009 picks have been solid (Mankins, Light, Koppen, Warren, Mayo, Graham) but I wouldn't put any in the impact category. Other teams, even other teams that draft low such as the Colts, seem to be able to find more such guys. For example, on the Colts I can think of Freeney, Matthis, their torpedo safety (can't think of his name right now), Reggie Wayne, Dallas Clark, etc. just off the top of my head.

 

[The_Riddler]

Re: Our recent draft picks vs the Raven's recent draft picks

Look at a replay of the first play of the game where Rice takes it 83 yards. Mayo gets completely held up and can;t get off his block. Rice goes right by him. He's good, maybe above average, but no more than that.

Mayo has been getting lost in guards shoulder pads all year long. He can't shed blocks and the interior defense has really suffered because of it. I think last year's DROY was a result of two things: 1. Tackle Total, one of the most overrated stats that you'll ever find. Many of Mayo's tackles were after 4 and 6 yard gains, where he would finally come off the guard after the damage was done and a lack of competition for DROY.

For a guy that supposedly studies alot of film, he has a long was to go and he has to start by learning how to shed blocks, until he does that, he will be considered to be a bust based on where he was selected 10th overall.

 

[condon84]

Their player rankings aren't done by best player available. They are done by best VALUE available. This is what you don't seem to understand.

It seems pretty clear that your understanding of how the Pats break down their draft board is lacking. And so, you are speaking from a position of ignorance. They don't list out the players in a Top 750 list like they do on ESPN or NFLDraftScout.com. Why don't you head over to the Draft Forum and look up Shmessy's stuff on Draft Groupings. It would help out your understanding and mike actually allow you to have a educated conversation with people on the subject.

Wait a minute..... you're basing your argument of the Pats drafting strategy with an assumption by another member on these forums? LOL.

That's good.

How about we based it on what Belichick actually says:

Belichick: I would say highest player available, Steve. I think it's important that we get the best football player we can get. It seems like we have needs everywhere. Every year you can never have too many young players, other than at a position where you only have one guy – you can only have one right tackle, only one quarterback, only one kicker. But where you have multiple players playing a position, I think that having the best players that you can have in the long run pays off for you. If you don't fill those needs, even though you fill them on paper, if you can't fill them on the field then you're back up at the table next year looking for the same guy. So, we try to take the best player we can get for our system. We understand there are a lot of great players out there and some fit better for us than others.

All Things Bill Belichick: 25-Apr-2009 NFL Total Access Transcript

 

[TheComeback]

Re: Our recent draft picks vs the Raven's recent draft picks

Mayo had a really bad injury this year and may have never fully recovered. He was great his rookie season. Let's see what he does next year before we call him a bust.

Part of Mayo's success last year was playing weak-side linebacker next to Bruschi, who manned the strong-side. When Bruschi retired, Mayo took his spot and so far has struggled with it, as that position requires regular engagement with opposing guards. I thought he would be successful there, but it looks like those who said he wasn't that type of linebacker were right. Don't get me wrong, he's still a solid player, but obviously not as successful as last year.

The injury may have played a role in Mayo's lack of playmaking ability, but he had months to recover from it. It may be more of a problem of playing a position he isn't quite ready for. Also, don't underestimate Richard Seymour's ability to eat up offensive lineman, allowing the linebackers to penetrate more easily. That's an area of need that has to be addressed now, though I still like getting a high first-round pick for him.

Hopefully Mayo can improve over the offseason and work on his strength and technique.

The other option would be to get another stud inside linebacker through the draft or free agency and move Mayo back to WILB, allowing him to make more plays. Guyton would give us good depth as a backup at ILB, as it's very clear that Gary has extreme difficulty playing against the run. He is excellent coverage and would excel as 4-3 WLB.

So maybe moving to a 4-3, which we appeared to do at the beginning of the season, would be an option if we could get some 4-3 pass-rushing DL. I think that would make our defensive system a lot easier to develop through the draft.