Our Current Linemen and The Need To Upgrade

[mgteich]

OPEN QUESTIONS
1) Why we paying Cannon $4M a year? It seems that he is NOT a guard. My presumption is that he is essential as a backup, Game Day OT, and possibly as a Game Day backup RG.
2) Is Fleming an OT or RG in training? I would presume that if he were an OT, Cannon would not have been paid so much.
3) Would Wendell be effective on the left side, if needed?
=======================================
FOR NOW - SIX INCUMBANTS
Starters: Solder, ???, Stork, Wendell, Vollmer
Game Day Backups: Cannon, ???
6th OL and backup: Fleming
I would note that Cannon might start at LG (as he did last year, or Fleming at RG with Wendell at LG).
=====================================
THREE OPEN ROSTER SPOTS (one could be filled by a free agent or trade)
We have Devey, Kline and Barker
starting LG
backup LG
backup OT
===============
Some say that Belichick waited until the 4th round in 2014, so we have no reason to fuss and no reason to pick a guard early. Of course, last year we had Connolly and Wendell as possible centers.

As of now, I am not sure that we have two guards that Belichick would be comfortable starting.

 

[Gronkowski123]

the interior needs work thats for sure.

try to get marpet in the 2nd round

 

[meatface]

Even if Cannon and Wendell are the starters they need to draft interior lineman early, especially with how good the D-lines are in the division.

 

[ATippett56]

Marcus Cannon is an abomination at offensive guard and Josh Kline was the primary backup offensive guard against the Baltimore Ravens in the AFC Divisional Playoffs. Cameron Fleming was inactive against the Baltimore Ravens in the AFC Divisional Playoffs and was strictly an offensive right tackle at Stanford. Jordan Devey needs to upgraded immediately and does not deserve a roster spot.

 

[captain stone]

The churl Cannon is indeed an abomination at LG/LT. I still believe, however, that he could become
possibly a starting-caliber RG if given the repetitions during TC.
Fleming is also strictly a RG/RT prospect, which makes the re-signing of Cannon for all that precious
cap space especially bizarre.
Kline, Devey, Hauptmann & Barker simply do not beloing on this 53.
Wendell looked good at RT only because of the 4 aforementioned stiffs. Cannon or Fleming should be
the starter at RG in 2015.
Connolly is also not a long-term starting LG. If he re-signs, it should only be for one year at the vet
minimum+ with no guarantees. He'd make a nice backup interior OLman, like Wendell.
This OL is in desperate, desperate need of young, athletic, starting-caliber talent on the left side, which
is why Joel Bitonio SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE PICK AT #29 LAST YEAR.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

This OL is in desperate, desperate need of young, athletic, starting-caliber talent on the left side, which
is why Joel Bitonio SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE PICK AT #29 LAST YEAR.

I don't think BB viewed him as a zone blocking guy with the ability to pull and trap.

It is this same reason why I think BB passes on AJ Cann, who I think would make a great OG on our line. Plus I doubt BB goes interior O line prior to day 3.

The FSU guys make great sense because they all play our system and play it well. However, they will be gone by day three.

After the third round the guy that makes the most sense at OG is Austin Sheppard of Alabama. He is the best pulling and trapping O lineman in this draft and just needs to get stronger to be a plug and play O lineman similar to Stork. He won the RT job at Alabama after Fluker left and has played a ton of big games against big time opponents the last two years.

As a knee bender with mobility, he will fit our system from day one.

 

[BobDigital]

1) Cannon is not getting paid 4M per year. IMO you can take that 2nd year and throw it away. He is getting 2.6M for this year which is not a big time over payment for your 3rd OT which I think they see him as.
2) Flemming is both I think. He will see time as a TE in run formations though. This year he is not seen as the 3rd OT as that is Cannon. Maybe after this year that changes. Emergency versatility is what I would call him
3) Yes I think so but he is a better right side guy. The left is where you tend to run and he is not that good of a run blocking OG. If he did end up playing LG and we got a good RG that would not be the worst thing in the world and could still be a solid line.

I like all of Solder, Stork, Wendell and Vollmer to come back. I think if you get a solid OG that line is good enough though like many I would prefer Wendell as a premium backup.

Cannon showed in his career so far as an OT (especially RT) he can be decent. I don't think he can be a guard though. Looks built for it but the ability is not there. As a 3rd OT he is not bad though but I think Flemming will challenge him for that spot next year.

Flemming is still a mystery. We don't know what he will be yet but he is certainly a keeper. I can see him as an eventual RG or 3rd OT down the line. I think the plan is to keep him versatile and not a specialist for now.

Kline IMO is underrated here. He pretty much played in the entirety of 2 playoff games this year and the OL didn't miss a beat for either. He is not a guy I am looking to replace at this point. He is still young and cheap and when the games mattered most and he was called upon he delivered.

Devey is very upgradable.

I think they should only try to fill 2 spots as I like the 7 players listed above and think we have more than enough versatility in that group to not have to carry 10 players on the OL.

 

[mgteich]

1) Cannon is not getting paid 4M per year. IMO you can take that 2nd year and throw it away. He is getting 2.6M for this year which is not a big time over payment for your 3rd OT which I think they see him as.

You are ignoring the $1.0667 of signing bonus that the patriots chose to include in the 2014 cap. Cannon will receive $3.633M for his 2015 services plus playing time bonuses. If we throw away the 2nd year, and cut him after the 2015 season, that will be the cost. IMHO, over $3.5M for a backup is alot.

 

[mgteich]

I think they should only try to fill 2 spots as I like the 7 players listed above and think we have more than enough versatility in that group to not have to carry 10 players on the OL.

Agreed. We need to fill two spots. I agree that Kline is good enough to expect to keep him on the roster. We are replacing Connolly and Devey.

One is the starting LG spot. If Kline is the backup LG, then Belichick can be somewhat flexible in filling the 9th OL spot.

 

[patfanken]

The problem with trying to figure out the Pats OL is trying to figure out the Pats OL. Who would have predicted the Pats would win a superbowl with Connolly, Wendell and a 4th round rookie manning your middle. Who would have thought Connolly and Wendell would make it to the final roster, let alone end up starting and anchoring the OL. That's always been the problem of figuring out the Pats OL

Just look at Kline and Devey (especially Kline). How different is his career path different from Connolly or Wendell. Yet both rose from obscurity. Both are always among the top players you want to upgrade. And yet, both end up starting on good teams for close to a half a decade. You just don't know who will step up.

RE: Marcus Cannon. For 3 years I led the charge to have Cannon become an OG only to watch him fail miserably when he got his shot. It seems almost impossible that someone with the size and quick feet to be a decent OT couldn't transition what would seem to be an easier position. The only explanation I can offer is that Cannon didn't adjust well to "speed" at which things happen on the inside. At OT things generally happen to you coming from one side. When you are in the middle there is lots of potential activity coming at you from all sides. I don't think Cannon adjusted to it. Nor do I think he got the reps necessary to make that adjustment during camp. If the Pats committed to it from OTA's and thru camp, I have no doubt he could do the job.

However that being said, the Pats resigned him to be the swing T and he is best suited for the job on the team. Not every team gets to have 2 better than average OT's PLUS a veteran with successful experience to back them up. Its a big plus. So if the Pats are going to upgrade at the OG spots is going to come from someplace else on the roster than Marcus Cannon.

I think we could do worse than Kline and Flemming if that works out to be the case, with Wendell backing up all 3 positions. Flemming has already far exceeded my TC expectations of him, and he has shown a lot of position flexibility already. He has that road grader body for the run and size that can anchor a pass block on the LOS without getting pushed back into Brady's face. Kline has had some positive results, and we can't just assume that he won't keep getting better.

The only reservation I would have in taking what you expect to be your starting LG in the draft would be the potential of having just one full year of starting experience if your interior OL consisted one Rookie, Stork, and Flemming. We might have better players at the spots, but lose the advantage because of a lack of experience

 

[luuked]

You are ignoring the $1.0667 of signing bonus that the patriots chose to include in the 2014 cap. Cannon will receive $3.633M for his 2015 services plus playing time bonuses. If we throw away the 2nd year, and cut him after the 2015 season, that will be the cost. IMHO, over $3.5M for a backup is alot.

It is not too much for your swing tackle. Ideally you never need him and he is the backup but if something happens to Vollmer/Solder you will be happy to have somewhat adequate replacement that will not end Brady's career.

 

[AzorianPats]

I think Flemming is considered the long term replacement for Vollemer. SV is getting up there in age and he's had a couple of nagging back issues. Meanwhile Flemming plays RT, comes in to play TE when we go big, and can maybe play some guard.

Cannon is valuable to the team with his versatility to play multiple positions. From Tackle to guard. Brings good depth.

Unless BB and Gooch sees either both those guys as starting Guards then we have to pick up two guards this off season, whether it be the draft or FA.

 

[varjao]

We need to draft and bring a FA.

 

[manxman2601]

Reiss notes that Cameron Fleming is training to be a guard:

1. One of the more interesting things I learned over the last week is that Patriots second-year offensive tackle Cameron Fleming (6-foot-6, 325 pounds) has devoted more time in his offseason training to the guard position. The fourth-round draft pick out of Stanford worked with Sparta Performance Science in California, altering the focus of his training regimen in hopes of improving his movement skills (less rotational, more linear) with a focus on the more prevalent side-to-side movements at guard.

I had always assumed that he'd move to RG anyway although Reiss doesn't say which side Fleming might play on. Still don't think this solves the problems at LG however.

 

[patsfaninpa]

Reiss notes that Cameron Fleming is training to be a guard:



I had always assumed that he'd move to RG anyway although Reiss doesn't say which side Fleming might play on. Still don't think this solves the problems at LG however.

I'd guess RG. Doubtwe draft a big mauler if he's expected to contribute at RG. Would prefer an athletic LG. If we don't get a crack at a good cb at 32, I can see Fisher being our pick.

 

[Ivan]

If Fleming can take over RG and they can get a prospect like Cameron Erving to start at LG then their OL couple be great, and they are going to need it given the D Lines in their division. If Fleming isn't the answer then they need two staters imo.

 

[manxman2601]

Here's a challenge for you. The following is a metrical evaluation of an interior OL prospect that I really like but is considered a day three prospect. Can you guess who it is?



Explosive Lower Body Strength Percentile: Top 5

Speed Percentile: Top 4

Dynamic Speed Percentile: Top 7

Athlete Type: Explosive Lower Body Strength/Speed Dominant


Major Metrical Strengths:

· Hit age mark

· Above average lower body strength, speed and dynamic speed

Major Metrical Weaknesses:

· Height restricts positional flexibility

Metrical Success Recommendation: Potential Multiple All-Pro to Pro Bowl interior offensive lineman based on age and athleticism traits

Risk Aversive Grade: First-round


One other clue. Dante has worked him out.

Jim Cobern at Allprofootballsource.com is responsible for this metrical breakdown.

 

[luuked]

Here's a challenge for you. The following is a metrical evaluation of an interior OL prospect that I really like but is considered a day three prospect. Can you guess who it is?



Explosive Lower Body Strength Percentile: Top 5

Speed Percentile: Top 4

Dynamic Speed Percentile: Top 7

Athlete Type: Explosive Lower Body Strength/Speed Dominant


Major Metrical Strengths:

· Hit age mark

· Above average lower body strength, speed and dynamic speed

Major Metrical Weaknesses:

· Height restricts positional flexibility

Metrical Success Recommendation: Potential Multiple All-Pro to Pro Bowl interior offensive lineman based on age and athleticism traits

Risk Aversive Grade: First-round


One other clue. Dante has worked him out.

Jim Cobern at Allprofootballsource.com is responsible for this metrical breakdown.

Poutasi ?

 

[manxman2601]

Poutasi ?

Nope. Focus on "Explosive Lower Body Strength/Speed Dominant" and "Height restricts positional flexibility".

I'll add another clue. I believe that every press organisation that creates a CFB all-pro team chose him as a 1st team or 2nd teamer this past season. I love this guy, he's one of my favourite day three prospects (so is one of his teammates) but I don't think he's ever had any consideration beyond being a day three prospect because of his size limitations.

 

[hornetfb85]

Kouandjio or Matias