Other thoughts on tonight's game...

[MoLewisrocks]

I'm going to take a stand for KOC here. No he did not look good. And he should'nt have thrown that duck to the sideline. But he was fighting his inclination to tuck and run, he stood in there against an aggressive rush and sadly, he cannot yet judge the closing speed of NFL CBs.

That's the mistake QBs make when they haven't played much in the NFL. They don't sense the pocket and they don't sense the speed of CBs. There's only one way to learn and that's why Belichick left him out there. Practice will not teach him the speed of the game.

KOC is not Tom Brady. He's not even Flacco or Ryan. But I wouldn't judge him on this game. Let's remember that Campbell went 1-7 last week and I think everyone agrees he looked okay last night.

He was really poor. But he's signed for 3 more years and he's young. I hope he will improve. His probelm is the mental game. He struggles to just do his job. He's still trying to make something happen. That killed Gutz here.

He was never intended to be the next Brady. He doesn't flat out suck. The truth lies somewhere in bewteen. BB is hoping he develops into the next Matt Cassel. A reliable #2 with intriguing upside you can count on and/or flip if the opportunity presents itself. It will always be tough to do that here since absent an injury BB doesn't tend to spend much time showcasing trade prospects. He's too busy trying to build a winning team and instill discipline and build on execution in the pre season and win games in the regular season.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Kevin O'C has a lot of improving to do. His 2nd preseason is a disappointment. That said, the staff knew he'd need lots of coaching to develop. Next preseason we see a much improved player out there or he's not on the 53.

I'm no longer excited about the possibility of trading Jarvis Green. Yet again he shows that speed and pass rush production fans here wish for. Too valuable to trade.

I think it was Bruschi's responsibility to attempt to cover the TE on the 73 yard pass play. His only capability these days is run D backup.

Rookies make rookie mistakes. See Chung, Pat.

Looks like Dave Thomas got the "improve your play or Goodbye" memo and reacted positively. Say Goodbye to Alex 'the invisible man' Smith. Seemed like a great FA acquisition at the time. Oh well.

Lenon made one of those plays that makes it easier to get to 53 players. Remember last year's FA CB playing himself off the team with preseason game play?

 

[Patspsycho]

Where was Edelman tonight?

He got clobbered on a punt return in the last game and hasn't practiced/played since then.

 

[Patspsycho]

Patsox23 -
1) Kevin O'Connell sucks. He was absolutely horrible, and I'm not sure why he was SMILING at the end of the game. Apparently he doesn't realize that he may have just played himself down to #3 on the QB depth chart. He was never truly the #2. He only had it by default last year. Walter showed that he was the number two. That being said, the combination of Yates, Wendell and Connolly on the interior would make even Brady look horrible

How did Walter show he was #2? He muffed a key snap. That key snap came before the whistle (timeout), so that is not an excuse.

My only real bone with the game is that stupid NFL rule on a reviewable dead fumble. Players are drilled to play until they hear the whistle- but I think in this particular case, they should be taught to try to recover the ball EVERY TIME they think they see a fumble, regardless of whether they hear the whistle or not.

 

[DaBruinz]

How did Walter show he was #2? He muffed a key snap. That key snap came before the whistle (timeout), so that is not an excuse.

And that snap came AFTER the whistle, not before.

And Walter showed it in his previous playing time.

My only real bone with the game is that stupid NFL rule on a reviewable dead fumble. Players are drilled to play until they hear the whistle- but I think in this particular case, they should be taught to try to recover the ball EVERY TIME they think they see a fumble, regardless of whether they hear the whistle or not.

Its not stupid rule. The fact is that Taylor clearly fumbled the ball prior to being down. I had no issue with it..

 

[FalconHeavy]

And that snap came AFTER the whistle, not before.

And Walter showed it in his previous playing time.


Its not stupid rule. The fact is that Taylor clearly fumbled the ball prior to being down. I had no issue with it..

I remember that play. He flat out rebounded after hitting the the line

 

[signbabybrady]

And that snap came AFTER the whistle, not before.

And Walter showed it in his previous playing time.


Its not stupid rule. The fact is that Taylor clearly fumbled the ball prior to being down. I had no issue with it..

I think the rule itself is OK but on that particular play just about everyone clearly stopped. Only one person on the field continued to play. If there was no whistle there is no guarentee that player would have got the ball. I think that one was a poor example of that rule. Whistles affect the way guys react.

 

[spacecrime]

Need more salt.

Because my previous thread won't re-load for some reason. Apologies to the mods, feel free to delete it.

A brief preface: I fully subscribe to the "it's only pre-season" mantra, so take this all with a grain of salt.

1) Kevin O'Connell sucks. He was absolutely horrible, and I'm not sure why he was SMILING at the end of the game. Apparently he doesn't realize that he may have just played himself down to #3 on the QB depth chart.

2) Matthew Slater is the worst "look how smart we are" pick of the BB era. and we TRADED UP for him.

3) The defense, while likely not as ****ty as they looked tonight, isn't much better. Teams will pass-pass-pass, especially early as the youngsters in the secondary continue to learn how to...play football, I guess.

4) Wilhite taking back a pick-six doesn't change the fact the entire secondary, himself included, STUNK tonight.

5) Brady, if okay, which it appears he is, will be fine. He looks as sharp as we could expect him to. The hit by Haynesworth was absolutely a roughing the passer, driving him into the turf, but whatever. As long as the shoulder's okay, who gives a bleep.

6) Before people get all excited about BJGE vs. Maroney, BJGE was running through massive holes. Maroney was dancing a bit, but mostly because he had to. And his receiving was, as always, wildly underrated. He is a weapon in the passing game. But back to the running "holes..."

7) While I don't buy into our OL being elite, I do think they're pretty darn good. Not tonight.

8) Pass rush was good, even when they didn't quite get there, there was solid push.

9) Tackling was abominable. Wretched. Putrid. Horrific. Can't emphasize this enough. It is a big-time problem that, if not addressed, means the Patriots have no shot at the Super Bowl.

10) I think, largely from beginning to end, with occasional bright spots in the middle, this was a terrible performance by the Patriots and that you could read that all over BB's face. Who knows if it'll help, but I expect he will tear into them and might even play non-Brady vets deep into the first half next week.

 

[Patspsycho]

Its not stupid rule. The fact is that Taylor clearly fumbled the ball prior to being down. I had no issue with it..

That is NOT the issue I am raising. Yes Taylor clearly fumbles it. The issue is they blew the play dead so the Pats were standing around, and only the Skins CB had the sense to pick up the loose ball.

Then Zorn challenges it, and the ball is awarded to the Redskins because they technically recovered the ball even though the play was dead.

What I am trying to say here is that because of this rule (fumbles on dead plays can be challenged), every player should be taught to try to recover the ball every time they think there is a fumble, regardless of if the play was whistled dead.

 

[bostonia3333]

My quick grades on the gm

Brady played an A- game. WOW
Moss played an A+ gm. Simply insane--the crowd even seemd to be cheering him on they were so entertained with the TDs

Offensive line: B
Defensive line: B+
Secondary: D+
Gostkowski: A
Special teams: C
Running game: C-
Oconnell: F

 

[JD10367]

When people bash KOC, others like to say, "Well, look at Cassel." That makes absolutely no sense. Just because Cassel looked bad every preseason, and turned out to be pretty good, doesn't mean every backup QB is the same way. Cassel has nothing to do with KOC. The simple fact is, KOC doesn't look very good. The problem is, we don't know how Belichick thinks. Did KOC get to play the 2nd half because Belichick considers him the #2 and Walter's already on the way out? Or does Belichick already consider Walter the #2 and thus wanted to give KOC more chances to show if he's worth anything, both to Belichick and to potential suitors? Only Belichick knows.

Slater is another guy playing himself off the team. In another situation, he'd stick. But with guys like Edelman and Aiken (and even Nunn) around, there's just not enough room for everyone. He gave Slater every opportunity to show he could do something.

Butler didn't have a great time. I'll chalk it up to being a rookie, and getting pressed into action (IIRC he was out there from the get-go, pretty much). Wilhite did okay. Love got toasted on single coverage, but he's a scrub. Bodden got burned early on but it was a beautiful pass.

Taylor didn't do much to make himself stand out. Maroney did decently. BGJE had nice garbage-time runs. So the whole RB situation is further muddled. I think we're pretty sure Maroney will be the starter, Taylor will sub and do short-yardage, Faulk will be the third-down pass-catcher... it's just a question of whether there's roster room for BJGE. I hope so, 'cause he shows promise.

Lewis, I dunno... Much like Walter, is his lack of playing time a sign that he's a sure thing? Or a sign that he's a sure cut? Since Galloway got the nod in Welker's place--and looked okay--I think that's a sign that Galloway will be #3 on the depth chart to start things off.

Burgess looked more comfortable out there. But he's probably gonna get ragged on by his teammates for not catching Campbell when he made him backpedal, LOL.

Lenon got juked out of his jock on the TD run by Campbell.

Still not sure I'm fond of that 4-3. It doesn't seem to do that much for them.

 

[patsox23]

Patsox23 -
Even taking into consideration your preface, this has got to be one of the worst analysis you've ever put up. You over-stated the negatives greatly. Were there issues? Yep. Always are. Could they be better? Yep.. And they've got nearly 2 weeks to get better. But they aren't last year's Oakland Raiders and in preseason, you've got to focus on the different situations and the personnel on the field as you do the outcome. If you don't, then you miss the entire reason tehy play the games.

DaBruinz, thank you for giving everyone, myself included, an example of direct and full-throated criticsm without throwing a tizzy and getting all personal. We can all learn from it and it's the kind of analysis and criticism that this place used to have a lot more of.

As for your points, and those of others, I certainly am willing to admit being too critical last night, but I remain a bit more pessimistic about last night's performances, even if I temper them somewhat in the light of day. A few quick (second) thoughts...

I still think the tackling last night was awful. That doesn't mean it was awful every time and by every player, but there was a TON of bad tackling, imo. Not just on the 70-yard play to Cooley but certainly that was an egregious and unacceptable example.

I still think KOC has little sense of touch on the short throws, which I've read and heard a lot about and saw for myself at T.C. It's frustrating, but I'm not worried. Despite however negative my reaction may have been post-game, I remain deeply optimistic about what BB & staff can do with this roster, including guys taking awhile to develop. (Not that KOC has been here that long, but I'm not very impressed yet and haven't been.)

Terence Wheatley is depressing me.

Darius Butler didn't have a great night but I'm very high on him.

Here here to the "Mayo is an S-T-U-D" poster. Absolutely.

There was a good amount of positive last night, I apologize for not pointing more of it out initially, but overall, in my view, it was not a strong performance.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

-- Slater is a lock.
-- O'Connell is #2.
-- Vollmer looked good enough to go with 8 OL, LeVoir on PUP, and PSquad Orhnberger and Bussey.
-- I wonder if BB can get a 7th for O'Callaghan? Maybe a package deal with KC for O'C and one of the DL like Adams or Williams (though I'd like to keep Williams).
-- I expect Richardson to come back mid-season after his hand heals up, but I expect Caserio & Co. to be doing a serious case of dumpster diving for recycled CBs with all the dings those lads are taking (Wilhite, Springs, and Butler all nursing ouchies today - yes, I know Springs didn't play).
-- Ventrone getting DB reps was nice to see (the more you can do, the more you can do to make the team).
-- Walt better tighten up his crew a bit before the regular season, some of the calls and no-calls were a tad iffy.

 

[sg14]

Speaking of O'Connel, when we first drafted him I swear I read that the coaching staff was tweaking with his mechanics. And you have to wonder if that has caused more problems than benefits.

His first throw over the middle that bounced off something for the interception, looked like a fairly good throw, but off by just a hair. And from that point on his play just got worse. Maybe it he connects on that throw his confidence soars, and his play improves. Who knows.

I am glad BB pulled him, his play regressed so much you had to pull him for his own benefit, (lets re-group), and the team's benefit.

I see him making the team and hopefully the coaching will pay off at some point, but I would not consider him a #2 even if he plays lights out next week.

 

[patsox23]

Setting aside whether KOC "sucked" or "sucks," I hope I'm not alone in saying that him SMILING and laughing after a game where he did not play even close to well - and at a time when he is DEFINITELY battling for his place on the depth chart, at least - is not what you want to see.

 

[BelichickFan]

-- Vollmer looked good enough to go with 8 OL, LeVoir on PUP, and PSquad Orhnberger and Bussey.

We drafted O in the 4th round, I'd be shocked if we tried to get him to the PS.

 

[JD10367]

-- Slater is a lock.

Why? We know Moss and Welker are, and the way they've been giving Galloway a hard look I think he's the #3. Edelman makes it, unless he's so hurt he's going to IR. Aiken is the ST captain, no? So I'd think he'd be a 5th. For the last spot, IMO it comes down to Lewis, Slater, or Nunn. Nunn's looked good, and Lewis is a vet who blocks well.

-- O'Connell is #2.

Well, he's certainly looked like number two. A big steaming pile of it.

 

[SVN]

my observations if anyone cares. that is

1)brady and moss looked good. on the other hand..brady did look skittish sometimes under pressure and lot of his throws were on the backfoot when surrounded by rushers.brady of old would usually stepup and plant his foot and throw.i know i will get flamed for this but just my observation. maybe he needs more playing time ..as simple asthat.
2)our secondary is prettyrawandcan be exposed. if santans moss had caught pass it wouldve been an embarrasing TD. looked like a blown coverage.
3)tackling was too good.the chris cooley run was an example.
4)Run defense was awesome.
5)special teams was okay..somegood and bad. with rookies its expected. chung redeemed himself to setup the game winner after that muffed punt.
lot of experimentation going on so its hard to figure out what the team is think forward. randy ran as many short crossing routes as he would and 2-3 games and kinda played like welker today. Without welker and edelmen and faulk our off was able to move the ball effectively.
6)i liked the way fred taylor ran. not overly effective but decisive and gained +ve yardage
7)wouldve liked to see more from burgess although he did look fast when in the open chasing campbell

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Why? We know Moss and Welker are, and the way they've been giving Galloway a hard look I think he's the #3. Edelman makes it, unless he's so hurt he's going to IR. Aiken is the ST captain, no? So I'd think he'd be a 5th. For the last spot, IMO it comes down to Lewis, Slater, or Nunn. Nunn's looked good, and Lewis is a vet who blocks well.



Well, he's certainly looked like number two. A big steaming pile of it.

If you were to assign Slater to a position it would be S, not WR. He's a lock for Special Teams:
-- he's the top Gunner,
-- top Lead Blocker,
-- top Gunner Blocker,
-- one of the top KO coverage men,
-- he's done a decent job as a KR despite people's memories of the Pittsburgh game,
-- and I believe he was one of the guys who helped free up Chung for the blocked kick against the Eagles.
Both of his Fair Catch interference penalties resulted from the punts tailing off to the side and the PR moving into Slater to follow the kick - it's a correctable issue. You also have to realize there's a reason he's the one drawing those penalties - it's because he's beaten the blockers and run down under the Punt while it's still in the air. Idiots may wish to attack his intelligence, but you've got some incredible athletic talent moving at high speed, avoiding blockers, and getting into position to make a play - Scott O'Brien will fix the stopping distance issue, it's most certainly not an intelligence problem.

For pure Special Teams specialists I have Aiken and Slater as locks, with Alexander and Ventrone near locks. BB believes in his Special Teams guys and he's shown a lot of confidence in those four. Aiken, Ventrone, and Alexander are also decent emergency depth in their respective position areas, Slater needs more work as a Safety, but he'll do in a pinch.

 

[Diego]

Setting aside whether KOC "sucked" or "sucks," I hope I'm not alone in saying that him SMILING and laughing after a game where he did not play even close to well - and at a time when he is DEFINITELY battling for his place on the depth chart, at least - is not what you want to see.

It looked to me like he was grimacing after the game, not smiling, like he was pissed, which of course he should have been.