OT: Talk about a killer draft

[Deus Irae]

Actually I left the most recent draft out because, and I'll just reiterate this in case you missed it, 1 year is not a sufficient time frame to evaluate a draft. For all the promise that Vollmer and Edelman show they could just as easily take a step back and play their way out of the limelight. At the same time Ron Brace, Patrick Chung, and Brandon Tate could emerge as reliable starters. You yourself stated that the jury is out on McKenzie, Tate, Brace, Vollmer, Butler, and Chung. That's 6 players from the draft that you can't grade out so what is the use in trying to determine the quality of the draft when, again going with your logic, half of the players can't be graded? Leaving out the 2009 draft wasn't for my own benefit, I'm more than confident in my point than to have to cherry pick statistics.

The person I responded to chose the time frame of the past 3 drafts. It wasn't me. You jumped in on a post, moved the goalposts, and still screwed up the analysis..

It's great that some of those back end draft picks the Patriots had are still kicking around the NFL in different capacities, but the very fact that they aren't playing for the Patriots reinforces the notion that the Patriots haven't done a good job with the draft. The point of the entire process is to select players that you think can add value and improve your franchise. If they can't select players that they can develop in any capacity(be it starter, backup, ST) for their team, it only details their deficiencies further. Drafting a player that you can't use but another team can doesn't help your cause in any capacity.

Actually, it doesn't reinforce that at all. That's the whole point that you continue to just ignore. That's because you're not analyzing. You're arguing from a bias and slanting the information, instead.

Now of all the players that were Patriots draft picks but no longer with the team, let's actually evaluate the production that these players have amassed over their careers because you missed a few:

Garrett Mills- Converted TE now with 7 career catches
Ryan O'Callaghan- Played 14 games in 2009
Jeremy Mincey- Recorded 15 career tackles and 2 sacks, with Jacksonville
Dan Stevenson- Hasn't started a game in NFL career
Le Kevin Smith- A 6th round pick traded for a 7th round pick(that's a step backwards for the record). Recorded a whopping 10 tackles for Denver this year
Willie Andrews- Out of football
Kareem Brown- Hasn't recorded any stats as a professional, currently out of football
Clint Oldenburg- 2 career games
Justin Rogers- 35 career tackles, none with Patriots.
Oscar Lua- Out of football
Mike Elgin- Member of the Colts practice squat
Bo Ruud- Waived by Tampa Bay in the 2009 pre season.

That's a real awesome group, bro.

Of course, you conveniently neglect the obvious here, which is the point: These are late round picks trying to beat out players on what has been one of the elite teams in the NFL. A couple examples of how actually looking more deeply than just "not there" is a helpful thing to do:

O'Callaghan is strictly a right tackle who drafted in 2006. He spent his time on the Patriots as a backup to a right tackle ALSO drafted by the Patriots, and drafted in a higher round. He lost his spot to a free agent signee who plays both tackle positions, and a 2nd round pick taken years later who also plays both tackle positions. The Patriots let him go and he became the starting right tackle for another NFL team. That's right, the player who was a 6th round draft pick in 2006 and had made 7 starts for the Patriots since then, but had fallen to 5th on the Patriots tackle depth chart, went on to start for another team in the same year he was cut.

Smith was a 6th round pick who was with the team for years, since he was drafted in 2006. After backing up the best 3-4 defensive front in football for 3 years, he was supplanted by a later low round draft pick, Myron Pryor, and was of sufficient value that the team was able to get a draft pick for him.

Again, a little analysis and you see that you're pissing and moaning about late round picks, at least some of whom have managed to survive in the NFL.

 

[bigfandan]

Not getting starting quality players or all pros with every 4-7th round pick is not a valid complaint.

If you want to compete at the highest level, that seems pretty necessary. Colts has consistently found gem in later rounds, and drafting near end of each round. So did San Diego, and so did Cowboys. They either overperformed or lucked out... but the net net they have more than fair share of talent vs. their draft position or the law of average. That's why everyone envies to have Cowboys and Chargers' rosters. That is why they are so good now. Its is all because of their roster. It all traces back to draft.

 

[the wrothbroughterer]

The person I responded to chose the time frame of the past 3 drafts. It wasn't me. You jumped in on a post, moved the goalposts, and still screwed up the analysis..

I didn't screw anything up. Between the 2006 and 2008 drafts the Patriots have managed to develop and keep 3 starters, 4 if you count Maroney. That's just a fact. It's also a really disappointing amount when you consider that they finished the 2009 season with 2 starters from the 2005 draft.

Actually, it doesn't reinforce that at all. That's the whole point that you continue to just ignore. That's because you're not analyzing. You're arguing from a bias and slanting the information, instead.

I'm not slanting anything at all. If you disagree that the entire focus of the NFL draft is to develop and keep your own talent that's fine. I just don't know why anyone would want to take you seriously.

Of course, you conveniently neglect the obvious here, which is the point: These are late round picks trying to beat out players on what has been one of the elite teams in the NFL. A couple examples of how actually looking more deeply than just "not there" is a helpful thing to do:

O'Callaghan is strictly a right tackle who drafted in 2006. He spent his time on the Patriots as a backup to a right tackle ALSO drafted by the Patriots, and drafted in a higher round. He lost his spot to a free agent signee who plays both tackle positions, and a 2nd round pick taken years later who also plays both tackle positions. The Patriots let him go and he became the starting right tackle for another NFL team. That's right, the player who was a 6th round draft pick in 2006 and had made 7 starts for the Patriots since then, but had fallen to 5th on the Patriots tackle depth chart, went on to start for another team in the same year he was cut.

O'Callaghan started as a RT after he was drafted then lost his job to Kaczur, got hurt, and was then released. He couldn't even make it through his rookie contract. That's a desirable career path for a draft pick for you?

Smith was a 6th round pick who was with the team for years, since he was drafted in 2006. After backing up the best 3-4 defensive front in football for 3 years, he was supplanted by a later low round draft pick, Myron Pryor, and was of sufficient value that the team was able to get a draft pick for him.

What's good about any of that? We had a pick that wasn't good enough to be our back up so we sold low on him. At its best that's a lateral move, and that's being generous.

Again, a little analysis and you see that you're pissing and moaning about late round picks, at least some of whom have managed to survive in the NFL.

And none with the Patriots. The only team that should matter. I understand that as late round picks almost none of them are going to be stars, if you're lucky a few will be starters, a few should be back ups, and a fair amount won't make it. In the Patriots case a lot of them didn't make it and that's not okay.

 

[fester]

Like this one.....

1 24(24) Brandon Meriweather DB Miami (FL)
4 28(127) Kareem Brown DT Miami (FL)
5 34(171) Clint Oldenburg OT Colorado State
6 6(180) Justin Rogers LB Southern Methodist
6 28(202) Mike Richardson DB Notre Dame
6 34(208) Justise Hairston RB Central Connecticut State
6 35(209) Corey Hilliard OT Oklahoma State
7 1(211) Oscar Lua LB USC
7 37(247) Mike Elgin OG Iowa


ouch.....

Please note in the previous two drafts, the number of 1st and 2nd rounders compared to this draft... apples to grapefruit

 

[the wrothbroughterer]

Please note in the previous two drafts, the number of 1st and 2nd rounders compared to this draft... apples to grapefruit

They still had 9 picks and have only retained 1 player from that draft. The overwhelming majority of picks comes in the 6th and 7th rounds so you have a point, but that kind of failure can't happen every time.

 

[unoriginal]

I will give you Welker and Moss for the 2nd, 4th, and 7th round picks..I'll even throw in Joe Staley for Mayo.

BUT instead of Meriweather they could have taken either

Beason or Anthony Spencer

Players taken between 127 and 171:

Clint Sessions
Le'Ron McClain
Steve Breaston
Kevin Boss
Brent Celek
David Clowney
William Gay

Players taken 171 and on..

Legadu Nanee (172)
Kasey Studdord (183)
Ken Shacklford (190)
Prescott Burgess (207)
Chancy Stuckey (235)
Brandon Siler (240)
Jason Snelling (244)
Artmad Bradshaw (250)
Chinedum Ndukwe (253)

Plenty O missess in the last 3 drafts

It's a shame the Pats missed the opportunity to get the services of Prescott Burgess for a 6th round pick. Man they really missed a gem in that draft.

 

[tuckeverlasting]

Nonsense you homer. If that's true then a team which signs a top FA while giving up NO DRAFT PICKS should be considered to have an awesome draft. Better than any team that trades a draft pick for a player like we did. After all they didn't give up any picks and got a great player.

The point of the draft is you get good players cheap. If you give up a pick to get a top player (like Moss was) but you have to pay him top dollar, then it isn't as GOOD.

How many 5-7th rounders in that draft? And not one of them amounted to squat. You'd think by the law of averages he'd hit one once in a while. Blind pig finds the acorn type of thing.

man you are dense. one more time. moss and welker were acquired with draft picks. that means , when evaluating the draft, they are included. capiche ? talk about nonsense, what the hell do free agents have to do with evaluating a draft. man, the moron meter has been tacking in red hard the last few days. it's never good to come in here after a loss.


CHICKEN LITTLES, UNITE !

 

[unoriginal]

*Due to hitting his head with hand one too many times, unoriginal believes he's back in early 2003*

The team is going nowhere this year, and I'll tell you why: terrible drafting the last few years. Belichick may be better than Bobby Grier, but that's only because Bobby Grier is the worst drafter to ever draft a draft. He is legally barred from standing within 50 feet of a bar in case his presence skunks the beer.

Sure, I'll grant you Tom Brady worked out, but they whiffed on nearly every other pick in that draft and the others and that's why we are where we are now.

2000

Adrian Klemm - this pick is killing us. We need bookend tackles to protect our QB and we have at most one if he ever learns to block speed rushers.
J.R. Redmond - thanks for that one drive, but overall still a waste of a 3rd round pick.
Greg Robinson-Randall - half a year of mediocre production and now he's gone.
Dave Stachelski -
Jeff Marriott - what a waste of a 5th round.
Antwan Harris - shouldn't be anywhere near a starting lineup but a decent STer
David Nugent -
Casey Tisdale - washouts

2001

Brock Williams - another third round whiff
Kenyatta Jones - ugh, did they even background check this guy?
Jabari Holloway
Hakim Akbar
Arther Love
Leonard Myers
Owen Pochman
T.J. Turner

All these picks were wasted with the possible exception of Myers, who is giving us below-average value as bottom of the roster fodder. Sure we hit on Seymour but you'd expect that with the 6th pick of the draft wouldn't you? Nobody misses that high up.

2002

God this draft makes me sick. We had shots at a whole lot of studs but kept trading around so we could overdraft a tiny receiver and a tweener defensive lineman. Graham looks good but we need home runs with our first rounders to compete in the NFL; Baltimore got Ed Reed 3 spots after us and then the Eagles took Lito Sheppard. Just another blown draft. Sure Rohan Davey looks like a stud but you can only have 1 QB on the field at a time.

You can count maybe a handful of players from these drafts that are still playing for us, let alone starting. This is a roster that has basically zero young talent and we've been plugging the gaps with cheap free agents. Well we're not going to be able to do that forever. Our high picks might not all Pro-Bowlers, but they should all be starting for us and the lower round picks should be the backups. We've gotten zilch from our recent drafts unless you count the fact Owen Pochman stuck with an XFL team as something.

Belichick better get a competent draft guru / personnel guy because it's clear he doesn't have a ******* clue. I'm tired of this trading down or trading into the next draft bull**** too, along with trading draft picks for old, fat linemen: we need young playmakers NOW. 2001 was a miracle that is not going to happen again. Hell, 2002 might not even happen again.

Looking at these wasted drafts, it's clear we are going nowhere in the next couple of years. Maybe if 2003 pans out we'll win something in 2005.

 

[Rob0729]

Like this one.....

1 24(24) Brandon Meriweather DB Miami (FL)
4 28(127) Kareem Brown DT Miami (FL)
5 34(171) Clint Oldenburg OT Colorado State
6 6(180) Justin Rogers LB Southern Methodist
6 28(202) Mike Richardson DB Notre Dame
6 34(208) Justise Hairston RB Central Connecticut State
6 35(209) Corey Hilliard OT Oklahoma State
7 1(211) Oscar Lua LB USC
7 37(247) Mike Elgin OG Iowa


ouch.....

Bashing this draft is the most overrated thing on this board and in the Boston Media. Sorry, the Pats went 18-1 that year and most of their picks were in the 6th or 7th round. Sixth and 7th round picks are far from locks to make any team that has a chance of going .500 or better. That means that six of the Pats' picks in that draft were living on borrowed time. Looking at the players selected in the sixth or seventh rounds, here are the players who might have been a better selection than the ones they took:

Ahmad Bradshaw, Chansi Stuckey (although he is more a preseason player than production in the regular season), Nick Folk (did the Pats need another kicker though), Tyler Thigpen (he was actually drafted and cut by the Vikings before the start of the 2007 season), Marvin Mitchell, and Prescott Burgess (although the Pats acquired him from Baltimore and cut him).

Most of the other sixth and seventh rounders are either out of the league or bouncing from practice squad to practice squad.

 

[the wrothbroughterer]

*Due to hitting his head with hand one too many times, unoriginal believes he's back in early 2003*

The team is going nowhere this year, and I'll tell you why: terrible drafting the last few years. Belichick may be better than Bobby Grier, but that's only because Bobby Grier is the worst drafter to ever draft a draft. He is legally barred from standing within 50 feet of a bar in case his presence skunks the beer.

Sure, I'll grant you Tom Brady worked out, but they whiffed on nearly every other pick in that draft and the others and that's why we are where we are now.

2000

Adrian Klemm - this pick is killing us. We need bookend tackles to protect our QB and we have at most one if he ever learns to block speed rushers.
J.R. Redmond - thanks for that one drive, but overall still a waste of a 3rd round pick.
Greg Robinson-Randall - half a year of mediocre production and now he's gone.
Dave Stachelski -
Jeff Marriott - what a waste of a 5th round.
Antwan Harris - shouldn't be anywhere near a starting lineup but a decent STer
David Nugent -
Casey Tisdale - washouts

2001

Brock Williams - another third round whiff
Kenyatta Jones - ugh, did they even background check this guy?
Jabari Holloway
Hakim Akbar
Arther Love
Leonard Myers
Owen Pochman
T.J. Turner

All these picks were wasted with the possible exception of Myers, who is giving us below-average value as bottom of the roster fodder. Sure we hit on Seymour but you'd expect that with the 6th pick of the draft wouldn't you? Nobody misses that high up.

2002

God this draft makes me sick. We had shots at a whole lot of studs but kept trading around so we could overdraft a tiny receiver and a tweener defensive lineman. Graham looks good but we need home runs with our first rounders to compete in the NFL; Baltimore got Ed Reed 3 spots after us and then the Eagles took Lito Sheppard. Just another blown draft. Sure Rohan Davey looks like a stud but you can only have 1 QB on the field at a time.

You can count maybe a handful of players from these drafts that are still playing for us, let alone starting. This is a roster that has basically zero young talent and we've been plugging the gaps with cheap free agents. Well we're not going to be able to do that forever. Our high picks might not all Pro-Bowlers, but they should all be starting for us and the lower round picks should be the backups. We've gotten zilch from our recent drafts unless you count the fact Owen Pochman stuck with an XFL team as something.

Belichick better get a competent draft guru / personnel guy because it's clear he doesn't have a ******* clue. I'm tired of this trading down or trading into the next draft bull**** too, along with trading draft picks for old, fat linemen: we need young playmakers NOW. 2001 was a miracle that is not going to happen again. Hell, 2002 might not even happen again.

Looking at these wasted drafts, it's clear we are going nowhere in the next couple of years. Maybe if 2003 pans out we'll win something in 2005.

It's a much bigger problem now that all of our best players are on the wrong side of 30.

 

[makoute]

Takes 4 years though apparently to pay off.

Do we have 4 years?

I'm going to ignore that your post could be considered heresy against BB by the homers here.

The top of those two drafts paid off right away.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

Far too much time is spent discussing the 2007 draft. Moss and Welker were good uses of draft picks but they were not actual draft picks. Samuel, Brady, Koppen, Givens and Cassell were all drafted in rounds 4-7 by this team in previous years. 18 picks in rounds 4-7 (2006-2008) resulted in a placekicker (a very good one) a special teamer and a nickel back that makes Ellis Hobbs look like the second coming of Deion Sanders. That is not how a competitive team is built. Wheatley, Crable, Chad Jackson, Dave Thomas, O'Connell and Maroney are the 1-3 picks to go along with Mayo and Meriwether. The problem seems to have been fixed in 2009 but that still remains to be seen. So once again I'll ask, If drafting has not become a problem for this team then where is the talent?

 

[Jimke]

Check out the cowboys 2005 draft by Parcells:

1 Demarcus Ware Troy State
1 Marcus Spears Louisiana State
2 Kevin Burnett Tennessee
4 Marion Barber Minnesota
4 Chris Canty Virginia
6 Justin Beriault Ball State
6 Rob Petitti Pittsburgh
7 Jay Ratliff Auburn

Kevin burnett is not on the cowboys anymore but is doing quite well I think in San Diego.

This is really what the pats need - just one or two amazing drafts like the one above. That's one of the things I've always loved about parcells - he drafts so well. I mean look at Jay Ratliff - a 7th rounder who is having such an impact as the starting NT for the cowboys. The cowboys are where they are today IMO mainly because of this draft.

edit: The 2005 draft by the Chargers A.J. Smith is almost equally as impressive:


1 Shawne Merriman Maryland
1 Luis Castillo Northwestern
2 Vincent Jackson Northern Colorado
4 Darren Sproles Kansas State
5 Wesley Britt Alabama
6 Wes Sims Oklahoma
7 Scott Mruczkowski

The Patriot's best draft was 1995:

1. Law
2. T. Johnson
3. Martin
3. Hitch****
4. Wolabaugh

Guess who was head coach?

 

[unoriginal]

It's a much bigger problem now that all of our best players are on the wrong side of 30.

2003:

Players over 30:
Troy Brown
Tedy Bruschi
Bobby Hamilton
Rodney Harrison
Ted Johnson
Willie McGinest
Roman Phifer
Tyrone Poole
Antowain Smith
Adam Vinatieri
Ted Washington

Players under 30:
Dan Graham
Richard Seymour
Matt Light
Tom Brady
Kevin Faulk
Mike Vrabel
Damien Woody
Larry Izzo
Ty Law

Now:

Over 30:
Tom Brady
Kevin Faulk
Dan Koppen
Matt Light
Sammy Morris
Randy Moss
Stephen Neal

Under 30:
Sam Aiken
Logan Mankins
Jerod Mayo
Brandon Meriweather
Sebastian Vollmer
Ty Warren
Mike Wright
Wes Welker
Vince Wilfork

EDIT: Mankins and Wilfork are kept due to reasonable assumptions about tagging.

 

[unoriginal]

Far too much time is spent discussing the 2007 draft. Moss and Welker were good uses of draft picks but they were not actual draft picks. Samuel, Brady, Koppen, Givens and Cassell were all drafted in rounds 4-7 by this team in previous years. 18 picks in rounds 4-7 (2006-2008) resulted in a placekicker (a very good one) a special teamer and a nickel back that makes Ellis Hobbs look like the second coming of Deion Sanders. That is not how a competitive team is built. Wheatley, Crable, Chad Jackson, Dave Thomas, O'Connell and Maroney are the 1-3 picks to go along with Mayo and Meriwether. The problem seems to have been fixed in 2009 but that still remains to be seen. So once again I'll ask, If drafting has not become a problem for this team then where is the talent?

You just took a 5 year, 34 pick sample period in rounds 4-7 and compared it with a 3 year, 18 pick sample.

Obviously the talent is in the next two years and 16 picks.

 

[the wrothbroughterer]

2003:

Players over 30:
Troy Brown
Tedy Bruschi
Bobby Hamilton
Rodney Harrison
Ted Johnson
Willie McGinest
Roman Phifer
Tyrone Poole
Antowain Smith
Adam Vinatieri
Ted Washington

Players under 30:
Dan Graham
Richard Seymour
Matt Light
Tom Brady
Kevin Faulk
Mike Vrabel
Damien Woody
Larry Izzo
Ty Law

Now:

Over 30:
Tom Brady
Kevin Faulk
Dan Koppen
Matt Light
Sammy Morris
Randy Moss
Stephen Neal
Adalius Thomas

Under 30:
Sam Aiken
Julian Edelman
Gary Guyton
Logan Mankins
Jerod Mayo
Brandon Meriweather
Sebastian Vollmer
Ty Warren
Benjamin Watson
Mike Wright
Wes Welker
Vince Wilfork

EDIT: Mankins and Wilfork are kept due to reasonable assumptions about tagging.

That group under 30 from 2003 looks a hell of a lot better than the one from 2009. If Gary Guyton and Sam Aiken are among our best players then we have some serious issues too.

 

[unoriginal]

That group under 30 from 2003 looks a hell of a lot better than the one from 2009. If Gary Guyton and Sam Aiken are among our best players then we have some serious issues too.

I took Guyton out a while ago on the grounds he wasn't as good as Phifer yet but Aiken stays as the special teams captain / Larry Izzo replacement, a role in which he excelled.

In any case the ratios between the two groups remain equivalent. The good players now are not all on the wrong side of 30 any more than they were in 2003.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

The Patriot's best draft was 1995:

1. Law
2. T. Johnson
3. Martin
3. Hitch****
4. Wolabaugh

Guess who was head coach?

Yup, Parcells does a good job a picking players - no doubt about it. He'll do the same thing in Miami and they will compete for the division title every year. Also notable parcells' picks for the pats include:

Bledsoe

Willie McGinest

Lawyer Milloy

Tedy Bruschi

I guess his real strength is picking defensive players.

 

[condon84]

Yup, Parcells does a good job a picking players - no doubt about it. He'll do the same thing in Miami and they will compete for the division title every year. Also notable parcells' picks for the pats include:

Bledsoe

Willie McGinest

Lawyer Milloy

Tedy Bruschi

I guess his real strength is picking defensive players.

Parcells has already laid a nice foundation in MIA. Henne looks like he could be a good player and if Parcells is again the guy running their draft this year, that's another draft class that's going to pay dividends for that franchise.

Also, I like how people defend our draft picks by saying they're still in the NFL or how they started for us. Just because a player starts for us or plays significant minutes for us doesn't mean they are good players.

 

[Deus Irae]

...Also, I like how people defend our draft picks by saying they're still in the NFL or how they started for us. Just because a player starts for us or plays significant minutes for us doesn't mean they are good players.

Just because a player drafted in a lower round doesn't make the team or play significant minutes for "us" doesn't mean they are bad picks.