Week 12 MNF - Baltimore Ravens at New Orleans Saints

[Oswlek]

I didn't see an "other games" thread and none of the current threads appeared appropriate. If this should have gone somewhere else, feel free to move it.

* I know Rex is having a rough go of it right now, but IMO the Ryan brother who was worse last night was Rob. The Jets were awful against Buffalo, but they are awful. NO let a very winnable game slip right through their hands by atrocious asset management

Quick! You have probably the worst collection of DBs in the entire league - seriously, at least two of the 2011 Patriots secondary would start for the Saints right now - and you are playing a team with two excellent WRs whose entire offensive game plan is throw it quick to the first read or throw deep. What defense do you call?

If you said lots of zero blitzes leaving your terrible CBs in single coverage and allowing 8 yards of cushion you might be qualified to be the New Orleans defensive coordinator! If not, don't fret, it just means you have a functioning neocortex.

Wow, that was ugly.

* I've watched quite a bit of the Saints this year and I have to say... {clears throat and prepares best Chris Simms impression}... Drew Brees is not a top five quarterback.

I don't know if it is purely system, but I can say with certainty that Brees' aggressiveness is creating problems for the offense. Beyond the obvious turnovers (both picks and fumbles after holding the ball too long), I saw no less than a half dozen plays last night when a receiver was open in the flat for good yardage, but Drew waited too long for the big play giving the defense time to react.

******Tangent***************************

This is precisely the stuff that PFF doesn't seem to recognize. Yes, it is far more visually impressive to see someone toss the ball 40 yards downfield into a tight window, but quick recognition of the easy play is equally important. I've seen them degrade Tom due to passes appearing too easy with receivers too open, failing to realize that Tom is the reason the play seemed so easy.

******End Rant**************************

There was a moment in the 3rd quarter when ESPN ran a stat about Brees being 4/4 with 160 yards and a TD on passes more than 20 yards, or something to that effect. What was funny is that two of those plays really should have been picked, one play along the sidelines when the receiver had to literally steal the ball from the defender while falling to the turf and the other when the safety bizarrely backed up into the end zone giving Colston the space to make the catch.

I swear on my life that even before the announcers went over it, I stood up and said to my daughter, "what the hell was that guy doing?! Seriously, watch this player when they do the replay... look at him just back up when all he had to do is jump for an easy interception. At the very least he could have drilled the receiver and ." Too her credit she actually tried to follow me.

So um.... where was I again? Oh yeah, Brees is a fine QB. But let's stop lumping him in with Brady, Manning and Rodgers.

* In an ironic twist, the one time I saw Brees react quickly to an open running back (maybe it was the play call?) was the play on the goal line where the guy caught the ball with a clear path to a TD, but for some reason couldn't keep his balance and he just backed his way out of bounds. I don't think I've ever seen that before. I've seen receivers fall down or have their sprinting moment carry them out, but stumbling backwards out of bounds with no defender anywhere near you when you have 5-7 yards of space to stabilize yourself is a new one for me.

* I'd like to have seen how the game played out in the alternate universe where no hold was called on Evans in the 3rd quarter. NO had Baltimore on their heels, were in Raven territory after an impressive run. Instead, they were pushed back 10 yards setting up the pick-6 that pretty much sealed the game, even if the Saints still had 20 minutes of flopping around, gasping for air until the lie was out of them.

That holding call changed the complexion of the entire game and even Jon Gruden admitted he couldn't see it on the replay. If I'm being generous, it might have been worth a 3 inch penalty. Maybe.

I think that's it. I don't expect anyone to really care about this game, but I had a few things to get off my chest and nowhere else to say them, so you guys fall on the sword this time.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Chris simms is upset at the patriots because after brady got hurt in 2008, they called him in as a potential starter and after he got to Logan they told him to go home. True story.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Agreed. Said elsewhere that Rob Ryan should be fired. All show, little substance.

 

[mayoclinic]

A few thoughts:

1. New Orleans' D is terrible. Awful secondary, and we've seen what the difference a good secondary can make. Rob Ryan only understands blitzing and aggressive D, and without the back end to make it happen it gets ugly, fast. Very fast. And their run defense was abysmal.

2. More proof that TV analysts and mediots have no idea what they are talking about. How many picked NO for the SB this pre-season, and hyped up their "fixed" defense under Ryan? It never ceases to amaze me how stupid these people are. It's one of those rare professions where stupidity seems to be a job qualification.

3. Teams make cap decisions which have significant ramifications. New Orleans deciding to let Darren Sproles go was one of them - purely a cap casualty, and they were going to cut Sproles before they realized they could get something in trade for him. The NO offense has relied tremendously on pass catchers out of the backfield, and Brees looks lost without that element. I would make that a priority for them in the draft. It does't have to be a high profile pick - someone like Venric Mark could really help them.

4. I'm just not impressed with Baltimore at all. They were just less bad yesterday. People talk about them being a tough matchup for the Pats. I'd love to see that game.

 

[VrabelJr]

The Ryans have always lived and died by their "exotic" (the media's words, not mine) blitzes. So on teams with incredible CBs (Cleveland: Joe Haden, Jets: Revis) they can be afforded those blitzes. Now they are both on teams with pathetic Secondaries and look at the results.

 

[Oswlek]

A few thoughts:

3. Teams make cap decisions which have significant ramifications. New Orleans deciding to let Darren Sproles go was one of them - purely a cap casualty, and they were going to cut Sproles before they realized they could get something in trade for him. The NO offense has relied tremendously on pass catchers out of the backfield, and Brees looks lost without that element. I would make that a priority for them in the draft. It does't have to be a high profile pick - someone like Venric Mark could really help them.

4. I'm just not impressed with Baltimore at all. They were just less bad yesterday. People talk about them being a tough matchup for the Pats. I'd love to see that game.

3) Totally agree. NO isn't the same offense if they aren't forcing the defense to acknowledge the first 10 yards in pass coverage.

It still surprised me to see Brees ignore that area last night, though. Even without a great RB receiving threat, guys came open they just weren't recognized. It makes me wonder how much of NO's multifaceted approach is scripted.

4) Can't disagree with you here either. Baltimore's offense is precisely the kind that this new defense is designed to stop.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Chris simms is upset at the patriots because after brady got hurt in 2008, they called him in as a potential starter and after he got to Logan they told him to go home. True story.

And yet the Patriots hired him in 2012 as some sort of assistant. . . .

 

[Oswlek]

I know I started the whole Chris Simms thing, but is it possible to not have this thread veer too far in that direction? Thanks.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

And yet the Patriots hired him in 2012 as some sort of assistant. . . .

eh, you may be right that he doesn't have a grudge against the team. I do know the airport story was true.

 

[BradyFTW!]

I think the biggest issue with Brees is that he's extremely reliant on RBs who can come out of the backfield and get open over the middle for easy gains. That's not a knock on him: every QB has stuff that they're reliant on. This is the first year in a long time that Brees doesn't have that, and I think it's affecting the rest of his game. I agree that he's probably not a top 5 QB, though. The top four is Brady/Manning/Rodgers/Luck, and he has a claim for #5, but a few other guys do too (Roethlisberger, Ryan, Brees, Rivers, Wilson, Romo). I think Brees can be reasonably put on that second tier.

As far as the New Orleans defense, I don't think it's totally fair to judge them based on last night, at least in any respect other than NT depth. Once Bunkley went down, they were ****ed. The Ravens knew that they could run for a first down whenever they wanted, and proceeded to do just that. It is a bit of an indictment of Ryan that he didn't coach the first guy off the bench up enough to at least play competently, but there are a lot of good defensive teams who have guys that they can't afford to lose. We're just not used to seeing that because Belichick seems to find a way to make pretty much anyone competent enough to not totally suck. And if he can't, he quickly yanks them and rolls with a plan B.

 

[Guts]

Speaking of BAL, only team I would fear in the playoffs in Baltimore. Only because they seem to not care or be intimidated playing in Gillete

 

[Oswlek]

Speaking of BAL, only team I would fear in the playoffs in Baltimore. Only because they seem to not care or be intimidated playing in Gillete

I see this all the time, but it strikes me as being more fan-speak than anything that actually impacts the game.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Speaking of BAL, only team I would fear in the playoffs in Baltimore. Only because they seem to not care or be intimidated playing in Gillete

In a normal year I would probably agree, but we match up well with them defensively and their secondary is an absolute dumpster fire. Anything can happen, etc, but all disclaimers aside I think that would be a pretty easy win for the Pats. Jimmy Smith going down pretty much doomed them to lose to the first good passing game they face in the playoffs (if they make it there), IMO.

 

[Oswlek]

As far as the New Orleans defense, I don't think it's totally fair to judge them based on last night

I didn't say anything about them season-long, just that they have a bottom 3 set of DBs and that the coaching was terrible. I think both are fair statements and applicable to even a single game sample.

I agree that he's probably not a top 5 QB

I was being a little hyperbolic with that comment. He has a reasonable claim to be the #4 or #5 guy in the league, along with everyone else you mentioned. He just shouldn't be included in the upper tier.

 

[BradyFTW!]

I didn't say anything about them season-long, just that they have a bottom 3 set of DBs and that the coaching was terrible. I think both are fair statements and applicable to even a single game sample.

They definitely have a bottom 3 set of DBs right now, but I also don't see how that's an indictment of Rob Ryan (who, FWIW, I agree is way overrated). It's the byproduct of going into the year without a good CB2 (which is bad, but the Patriots have done the same thing before), losing Byrd and Bush for the season, and having Lewis out there with a bad knee.

Not that Ryan is blameless, either. It seems like he messed with a good thing by throwing out the three-safety nickel package that they used so effectively last year (although with half their safeties on IR, that's probably a moot point now), and Vaccaro also hasn't improved nearly as much as you'd hope, for however much you can blame that on the DC.

 

[Oswlek]

I also don't see how that's an indictment of Rob Ryan

That they have a terrible secondary isn't Rob's fault, but going into that game with the absolute worst possible game plan is. That was historic level ineptitude, and I'm not exaggerating.

 

[pwes]

Baltimore is not scary. They have the worse record out of all the AFC north teams. They are not as good as their record indicates only being boosted by playing that pathetic division NFCS. Out of all the playoff bound teams Baltimore is near the bottom of teams that would worry me come playoffs.