OT: Lions Fan Rant on Johnson TD Reversal

[BradyManny]

Please point out to me, exactly at what second on the video that Johnson has established and maintained control of the ball on the ground.

It does not matter if he TOUCHED the ground before the ball comes out. He has to maintain control after he hits the ground.

The rule doesn't say how long after. The rule doesn't say a lot. Again, it could quickly become absurd. Thus, there is subjectivity left to the referee, as well there should be.

This is not comparable to a play where a player goes up in the air, catches it, and the ball pops out when he lands. That is what the rule is for.

YouTube - Calvin Johnson Robbed by NFL's Horrible Catch Rule

The maker of the video freezes it at :19, but as far as I'm concerned, it's a catch at :16. He's down, he has control (one handed or not). Again, the ensuing action is a superfluous, dumb move by Johnson, but has nothing to do with whether he had control of the ball or not.

 

[BradyManny]

Watch the play I linked to above. Its exactly what happens. He hits the ground rolling, his arm comes down and the ball hits the ground and pops out. its one fluid motion. Hes never sitting on the ground.

Does the rule say he must be sitting on the ground?

 

[reflexblue]

To me it looked like just dropped the ball thinking he had a td. I thought it was a td when i firt saw the play, i had the sound down and i didn't understand what was wrong until later on.

 

[fxkane]

This call is a terrible black eye for the NFL. This isn't about how many angels fit on the end of a pin, this is football and that was a stupendously clear touchdown. Refs have all kinds of subjective power in almost all other aspects of the game, why not a smidgeon here.

And to all you arguing for the call, just imagine Moss making the same catch on the near last play of the game with the game on the line--instead of this single thread which has come real late to the board, every single thread would be related to this catch

To tell the truth that despite the great Pat victory, my elation dropped considerably when i saw this reversal---to of all teams the Lions, who had to play this one with their backup qb. OUTRIGHT INJUSTICE!!

 

[Synovia]

This is not comparable to a play where a player goes up in the air, catches it, and the ball pops out when he lands. That is what the rule is for..

Again, use my video, not the super slow mo one.

This is exactly as above, he hits the ground, his arm is coming down, and the tip of the ball hits the ground and it pops up.

Yes, hes trying to get up and celebrate, but this is no different than any other time the ground knocks the ball out. He hits the ground, his body is spinning from impact, and the ball pops out.

That point on the video where you point out is literally a 1/16th of a second before the ball pops out. If you can't hold onto it for 1/16th of a second, you don't have control.

 

[Synovia]

Does the rule say he must be sitting on the ground?

No, it says he must maintain control of the ball after he hits the ground, through the entire impact with the ground, something he clearly didn't do.

 

[BradyManny]

No, it says he must maintain control of the ball after he hits the ground, through the entire impact with the ground, something he clearly didn't do.

I feel like Bill Clinton a little bit asking what is is, but what constitutes "he". At what point does he hit the ground, and how long is "after". Let's say instead of being an idiot like he was on that play, Johnson tucks it into his arms, falls to the ground - at what point is it a catch? It's always going to be subjective, no?

 

[Synovia]

I feel like Bill Clinton a little bit asking what is is, but what constitutes "he". At what point does he hit the ground, and how long is "after". Let's say instead of being an idiot like he was on that play, Johnson tucks it into his arms, falls to the ground - at what point is it a catch? It's always going to be subjective, no?

Its a catch when his body stops rolling, or he stands up with the ball. He has to maintain control of the ball throughout contact with the ground. It doesn't matter when he hits the ground, he just can't let go of the ball after hitting it.

if he had just tucked it into his body, it probably would have been a catch, but instead he kept his hand out, smacked his hand on the ground, and the ball popped out.


he HAD the ball, he just make a rookie mistake and tried to get up to celebrate before securing it. Its a catch in a playground sense, but not in an NFL sense.



It looks like its a catch in slow-mo, but if you look at it in real speed, he hits the ground and the ball is out in less than a 1/16th of a second.

 

[emoney_33]

No, you can't make that argument. Thats exactly what I though the first time I saw it, but watch it again on nfl.com.

He hits the ground, rolls, the ball smacks on the ground and pops out. He never has control. He didn't let go of the ball. The ball hit the ground as he was falling and popped out.


He, at no point, is on the ground with control of the ball.

I watched it over and over. Something is broken, either the refs interpretation of the rule or the rule itself but there is absolutely no way in hell that should not be a TD.

 

[emoney_33]

Oh man I had to go rewatch it again, and it gets worse each time I watch it. Catch, right foot, left foot, spin, fall, butt, left hand, roll, plants ball hand to get up and celebrate...

JOBBED.

 

[emoney_33]

Its a catch when his body stops rolling, or he stands up with the ball. He has to maintain control of the ball throughout contact with the ground. It doesn't matter when he hits the ground, he just can't let go of the ball after hitting it.

if he had just tucked it into his body, it probably would have been a catch, but instead he kept his hand out, smacked his hand on the ground, and the ball popped out.


he HAD the ball, he just make a rookie mistake and tried to get up to celebrate before securing it. Its a catch in a playground sense, but not in an NFL sense.



It looks like its a catch in slow-mo, but if you look at it in real speed, he hits the ground and the ball is out in less than a 1/16th of a second.

And where's the line for a player who catches a ball awkward and is stumbling forward while catching the ball but the stumbling takes him 10 steps before falling.

What Calvin did shouldn't be a TD but a guy who catches and then immediately dives to the cross the plane should, landing on the ball with it coming out should?

 

[Synovia]

And where's the line for a player who catches a ball awkward and is stumbling forward while catching the ball but the stumbling takes him 10 steps before falling.

What Calvin did shouldn't be a TD but a guy who catches and then immediately dives to the cross the plane should, landing on the ball with it coming out should?

The first guy, depends on how awkward he is stumbling (IE, if the stumbling and fall is a result of trying to catch the ball).

If the fall is a result of the catch, and the ball comes out, no catch. If he catches the ball, then dives, its a catch and then a fumble (or in, the endzone, the play is over).

 

[emoney_33]

The first guy, depends on how awkward he is stumbling (IE, if the stumbling and fall is a result of trying to catch the ball).

It is, but his stumble lasts 10-15 yards. Where's the line?

If the fall is a result of the catch, and the ball comes out, no catch. If he catches the ball, then dives, its a catch and then a fumble (or in, the endzone, the play is over).

Where's the line? Is he falling, leaning, was he diving before the ball got there, or after. He's moving the entire time in his route, and the fluid motion of the human body doesn't lend itself to a precise line of what "falling" means.

 

[mac]

Just saw the play for the first time on Utube. All Johnson had to do was tuck the ball in and fall down. He was more interested in breaking his fall. To me, clearly an incomplete pass.

 

[letekro]

The rule should not be changed for the reason that it eliminates judgment calls. Just hold on to the ball until you get up and it's a catch. Otherwise, there is this question of "is he throwing the ball away in celebration, or did he lose control of it"? Any rule that eliminates judgment calls is a good rule in my book. It's the player's job to know the rules.

 

[emoney_33]

The rule should not be changed for the reason that it eliminates judgment calls. Just hold on to the ball until you get up and it's a catch. Otherwise, there is this question of "is he throwing the ball away in celebration, or did he lose control of it"? Any rule that eliminates judgment calls is a good rule in my book. It's the player's job to know the rules.

There is still a judgement of what constitutes "process of the catch".

 

[Synovia]

I do not believe that is entirely accurate. According to the video, their was contact in the end zone. He catches the ball and begins to fall to the ground. Whether the contact was intentionslor not does not matter, there WAS contact.

Correct.

As he is falling to the ground he has total posession of the ball, albeit in one hand.

Correct, but it doesn't matter at all, because he was contacted in the air.

He hits the ground, still with posession and almost immediately there after (NOTE, it was AFTER his knee was down, he reaches out with his hand and the ball touches the ground and rolls outl

Exactly.

Beacuse hes contracted in the air, when his knee hits the ground doesn't matter. He must maintain possession AFTER he hits the ground. The fact that hes already "down" when the ball comes out doesn't matter one lick.

It should not have mattered as he was down by contact, in posession of the ball, even if it was only for a fraction of a second, and the play should have been ended at that point. Anything that occurred after that should not matter.

Again, no. Let me quote the rule for you here:

If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass, he must maintain control of the ball after he touches the ground, whether in the field of play or the endzone. If he loses control of the ball, and the ball touches the ground before he regains control, the pass is incomplete.

Calvin Johnson goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass, and does not maintain control after he touches the ground. Now, the reason he doesn't maintain control is probably that he was trying to spin around and celebrate, but the reason isn't important. He goes to the ground in the act, and doesn't maintain control.

 

[emoney_33]

If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass, he must maintain control of the ball after he touches the ground, whether in the field of play or the endzone. If he loses control of the ball, and the ball touches the ground before he regains control, the pass is incomplete.

Calvin Johnson goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass, and does not maintain control after he touches the ground. Now, the reason he doesn't maintain control is probably that he was trying to spin around and celebrate, but the reason isn't important. He goes to the ground in the act, and doesn't maintain control.

The instant he hits the ground it becomes "after". And he clearly had the ball in full control as he hit the ground, as he planted his other hand as he rolled and right before getting up. It came out in the act of getting up.

Bottom line, you can interpret the rule however you want, but there's no way that should not have been a TD in an ideal world.

 

[Deus Irae]

It's a bad rule that was put in to fix a bad rule, and it's now time to go back to the drawing board.

 

[Synovia]

The instant he hits the ground it becomes "after". And he clearly had the ball in full control as he hit the ground, as he planted his other hand as he rolled and right before getting up. It came out in the act of getting up.

Bottom line, you can interpret the rule however you want, but there's no way that should not have been a TD in an ideal world.

No, it absolutely didn't.

He lands on his left side, and hitting the ground causes his right arm to come down. The tip of the ball hits the ground and comes out. It is one FLUID motion. You can see that his fingers clench together after the ball squirts out.

And anyways, whether or not he was trying to get up is immaterial. He lost the ball going to the ground,