OT: LeBron James

[Kontradiction]

I never accused Stern of producing a Lakers win. I think his real motive is stretching the series out, as there is a huge financial benefit. Specifically, I thought the refereeing blatantly favored the Cavs in the first 3 games, and after game 4 when it was apparent Lebron didn't have enough, it shifted in the Celts favor.

There were a few who did. They accused him of stretching out the series and then having the referees swing the calls in the Lakers favor because the Celtics had beaten them in 2008 and a Lakers win in the rivalry would be good for basketball.

Really, have you seen a team give up the way Cleveland did? Right down to the final minute and not fouling, and ignoring their coach to do so. It was insane.

Exactly. The whole team was out of sorts and that falls on the guy who leads (or LED) them out onto the court: Mike Brown. There is a reason why Brown is out of a job right now. This is also one of the reasons why LeBron expressed a desire to play for a no-nonsense coach (remember the pre-game shenanigans in the Celtics series?).

That has to fall on the shoulders of the guy leading them on the court. So why was he so aloof?

Like I said, there were a variety of factors involved in that. Compare the last game of that series to the Pats/Ravens playoff game this past year. In the fourth quarter of that game, the whole team looked lost. There were a variety of factors in that as well. The Ravens had just beaten them into the ground the way the Celtics beat the Cavs into the ground.

Of course not, absolutely not. I have never said Lebron isn't a great player. Just that he should be second tier (Melo, Durant, CP3), and not mentioned alongside Kobe. And certainly, absolutely not mentioned in the same breath as any NBA great from the past. First tier players will their team to win.

To be fair, nobody should be mentioned alongside Kobe right now. LeBron has even admitted that in the past. Kobe is, essentially, all on his own on the first tier of players in that league. But people forget that LeBron is still young and still has a long career to go.

The perception was that Lebron didn't have enough around him. But looking back on it, how can that be true if the same team steamrolled through the regular season and was unbeatable at home, against any competition?

There weaknesses as a team were exposed in the playoffs. Teams were able to put multiple bodies on LeBron and get away with it because Mo Williams was incredibly overrated and couldn't hit a shot to save his life. Delonte West wasn't anywhere near consistent enough either to make defenses stay honest. Shaq was 37 years old and was nowhere near the threat he was earlier in the decade. Teams didn't have to account for much with him. And Anderson Varejao is a tenacious defender but leaves a lot to be desired on offense. It's a fact that LeBron didn't have enough around him. I doubt even Kobe could have won with that roster. But for argument's sake, let's take a look at all of their playoff stats...

1. LeBron James - 29.1 PPG, 7.6 APG, 9.3 RPG
2. Mo Williams - 14.4 PPG, 5.4 APG, 3.10 RPG
3. Delonte West - 6.7 PPG, 2.6 APG, 1.90 RPG
4. Anderson Varejao - 5.7 PPG, 0.6 APG, 6.50 RPG
5. Shaqille O'Neal - 11.5 PPG, 1.4 APG, 5.50 RPG

As you can see, in the playoffs, there was a pretty steep drop after LeBron. Mo Williams had a good series in the first two rounds but against the Celtics he was ineffective outside of a couple of games. The beliefs that LeBron "quit" in the last game is also incorrect. He scored 27 points in the last game. In the final playoff game, only James and Mo Williams (who had been harped on before that point by some of the media) scored more than 20. The rest of the starters scored 5, 11, and 7 points respectively. That's not what I would call a championship calibur supporting cast. James now has that.

At some point, the picture snapping, the calling onself King without any championships, the giving up in the playoffs, the 1-hour TV special, etc., etc. all adds up to paint a picture of the guy. I don't recall what you've said about Lebron, speicifically in the past, but would you be defending him if he weren't on the Heat right now?

Sure I would. I've defended him in the past on here as well, especially after Game 6. I think people harp on him too much.

And the fact is, Lebron will never enter the upper tier of all time NBA greats with his move to the Heat. He will always be remembered as the guy who had to leave town to get a ring. He has good company in guys like KG & Ray Allen. But if he really wanted to threaten Jordan's legacy, he absolutely had to stay in Cleveland and win, rather than defect to Miami to play with two more All-Stars. And ultimately, that's all Lebron is - a really good player who came into the league with great marketing and great PR. The reputation and aura surrounding him has - to this point - far exceeded his actual worth on the basketball court.

LOL. If he wins a championship, nobody is going to remember him for going to the Heat in order to do it. They'll just remember that he became a champion in the long run. It's much the same way that nobody brings up the fact that Jordan didn't win a championship before or after Pippen. All people remember is that he was a multiple time champion. I have to think that the Heat, with all of their additions (Juwan Howard is supposedly on board as well now too, so they have depth) are the odds on favorites to win a championship this year. The only teams I see capable of defending them are Boston and L.A. Even then, I don't really see anywhere where Boston matches up favorably with them right now. Not one position. The only exception could come at Power Forward, but that match-up is much closer than most Celtics fans would probably admit. It's by no means a clear cut Boston advantage there. But, then again, that's why they play the games. So we'll see. Really looking forward to next season.

 

[BradyManny]

LOL. If he wins a championship, nobody is going to remember him for going to the Heat in order to do it. They'll just remember that he became a champion in the long run. It's much the same way that nobody brings up the fact that Jordan didn't win a championship before or after Pippen.

What did Scottie Pippen ever do without Michael Jordan? Nothing. Jordan made Pippen, there's no question about it. Wade already has a ring, on a team that wasn't any stronger all around than Cleveland in the past several seasons.

As for your other points - I think the stats are largely irrelevant. Again, as leader of his team, Lebron is accountable for how his teammates played, just as Jordan, Bird or Magic were held accountable for the play of their supporting cast. Its part of being a great player.

The bottom line is, Lebron lobbied for certain players to come to Cleveland, and for the past several years, they've continued to add player after player that was apparently the person who was going to put them over-the-top. Shaq, Mo, Delonte, Jamison, Varejao, Z, Moon, Hickson, Parker, Powe. Thats 10 NBA caliber players. These are all decent players - and that's an awful lot of depth. While Cleveland may lack some talent at the top beyond Lebron, it did have, unquestionably, one of the more deeper teams in the league.

And just look at some of those acquisitions, every one of them saw their #s tank when joining Lebron's team. To be expected to some extent, sure. But Jamison was a sought after piece around mid-season - the Celtics themselves were interested in giving up Ray to get him. Add Jamison to Cleveland, and suddenly he's considered a horrible player. (Same goes for Mo Williams, he was considered a very good PG a few years ago.)

The Celtics were interested in bringing in both Anthony Parker or Jamario Moon - they both went to Cleveland and didn't do a whole lot. Powe was a huge piece in the Celtics 2008, and it pains me to say this, but had we had him this year, I think he may have made a, or the, difference.

So I'm tired of hearing excuses about Lebron's supporting cast. I absolutely do believe it would've been good enough for Kobe to win a ring. What are the Lakers without Kobe? His supporting cast is largely overrated, thanks to his play. Gasol is a great player and Bynum is a beast. But Artest is not a very good player anymore, and Fisher isn't good for much other than some clutch plays come playoff time. That bench is non-existent.

 

[Kontradiction]

What did Scottie Pippen ever do without Michael Jordan? Nothing. Jordan made Pippen, there's no question about it. Wade already has a ring, on a team that wasn't any stronger all around than Cleveland in the past several seasons.

This has nothing to do with my original point (which was that nobody remembers that Michael couldn't do anything before or after Pippen came along, just that he became a champion).

As for your other points - I think the stats are largely irrelevant. Again, as leader of his team, Lebron is accountable for how his teammates played, just as Jordan, Bird or Magic were held accountable for the play of their supporting cast. Its part of being a great player.

The stats aren't irrelevant. Your original argument was that he mailed it in. The stats show that to not be the case. Your other point was that he had a strong supporting cast. The stats, again, show that to not be the case as well. The stats are absolutely relevant. Dismissing them because they don't agree with your point doesn't seem to be a very good tactic.

The bottom line is, Lebron lobbied for certain players to come to Cleveland, and for the past several years, they've continued to add player after player that was apparently the person who was going to put them over-the-top. Shaq, Mo, Delonte, Jamison, Varejao, Z, Moon, Hickson, Parker, Powe. Thats 10 NBA caliber players. These are all decent players - and that's an awful lot of depth. While Cleveland may lack some talent at the top beyond Lebron, it did have, unquestionably, one of the more deeper teams in the league.

The only guy in that list that should be characterized as "a guy who could potentially put them over the top" is Mo Williams. He was their best addition by far. I didn't like a near-40 year old Shaq was going to do it. He's taken a steep dip since earlier in the decade. Delonte West is a JAG that can come off the bench and hit a couple of threes for you, but he's not going to be somebody that defenses are forced to pay attention to in order to take some of the pressure off of LeBron. Antawn Jamison was a pretty solid addition but he wasn't the solution to Cleveland's playoff woes. Varejao is a solid defender but he's just north of terrible on offense. Z has been there since LeBron came into the league and is not an offensive presence. Moon is a bench player. Moon, Hickson, Parker, and Powe are all bench guys. Not sure how they were supposed to give Cleveland another threat next to LeBron. I think we can say with absolute certainty that the surrounding cast in Miami is just a wee bit better than the surrounding cast in Cleveland.

And just look at some of those acquisitions, every one of them saw their #s tank when joining Lebron's team. To be expected to some extent, sure. But Jamison was a sought after piece around mid-season - the Celtics themselves were interested in giving up Ray to get him. Add Jamison to Cleveland, and suddenly he's considered a horrible player. (Same goes for Mo Williams, he was considered a very good PG a few years ago.)

I never said either of those guys are horrible.

The Celtics were interested in bringing in both Anthony Parker or Jamario Moon - they both went to Cleveland and didn't do a whole lot. Powe was a huge piece in the Celtics 2008, and it pains me to say this, but had we had him this year, I think he may have made a, or the, difference.

I don't think so. Eddie House and James Posey are the guys from 2008 that really hurt you this year. The Celtics two biggest problems in the Finals were scoring and defending Kobe Bryant. House and Posey would have helped out in these two areas.

So I'm tired of hearing excuses about Lebron's supporting cast. I absolutely do believe it would've been good enough for Kobe to win a ring. What are the Lakers without Kobe?

Kobe had a supporting cast almost like the one LeBron had in Cleveland in 2006 and 2007. He couldn't win with them. It took a talented big man at power forward and an intimidating presence underneath to put them over the top with Kobe. LeBron didn't have that presence at power forward in Cleveland and the best center he played with was a way over the hill Shaq who got outrebounded in the playoffs by the guy he came in to replace.

His supporting cast is largely overrated, thanks to his play. Gasol is a great player and Bynum is a beast. But Artest is not a very good player anymore

No it isn't. Gasol is the best power forward in the NBA and Bynum is quickly becoming a top three center in the league, when healthy. I don't understand how you can possibly say that Artest isn't very good after what he did for them against the Celtics in the Finals, both defensively and offensively.

and Fisher isn't good for much other than some clutch plays come playoff time.

Fisher is a three point threat and, yes, he is very clutch come playoff time. Who is Cleveland's Derek Fisher?

That bench is non-existent.

Shannon Brown, Lamar Odom, and Sasha Vujacic are pretty solid. I wouldn't call it non-existant, but there are better benches in the league.

 

[IcyPatriot]

This thread is becoming a thesis ... I fall asleep reading it.

 

[Kontradiction]

This thread is becoming a thesis ... I fall asleep reading it.

That's my debate style. Wear 'em down with words. :blahblah:

 

[DisgruntledTunaFan]

Those 2 playoff collapses weren't Lebron's fault. Partly to blame? Yes - but the Cavs couldn't beat an Orlando team that struggled heavily against a Garnett-less Celtics team. The Cavs obviously had issues in that series against Orlando, and it obviously wasn't 1 guy's fault.

As for losing to the Celtics this year? The Celtics got healthy, and hot at the right time.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

What did Scottie Pippen ever do without Michael Jordan? Nothing. Jordan made Pippen, there's no question about it.

Actually, and I know this is going off topic, but since you bring it up, Scottie Pippen is a top-50 all time NBA great in his own right. One of the best defensive players ever, and a clutch slasher with an efficient post game.

After Jordan took his "sabbatical", with almost the same team minus the greatest player of all time, Pippen still led the Bulls to game 7 of the Eastern Conference finals, after a great regular season record.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

Those aren't "facts", those are stats, they are misleading.

If you watched the games, which, I'm guessing you did not

This is such a bullcrap argument, that somehow I wasn't watching the same game. A few people raised the issue of LeBron quitting, yes, but it doesn't make it true, and I think those accusations were just as BS and off-target as the 'Randy Moss is a quitter' national mediot accusations, after Moss had bad games this past season. A player doesn't just coast and put up the numbers LeBron did against the Celtics. They still lasted 6 games against the league's best defense, despite basically zero help from anyone else on the Cavaliers. LeBron's last game he had 27 points, 19 rebounds, 10 assists. Yeah, he really did quit there...

 

[ausbacker]

This is such a bullcrap argument, that somehow I wasn't watching the same game. A few people raised the issue of LeBron quitting, yes, but it doesn't make it true, and I think those accusations were just as BS and off-target as the 'Randy Moss is a quitter' national mediot accusations, after Moss had bad games this past season. A player doesn't just coast and put up the numbers LeBron did against the Celtics. They still lasted 6 games against the league's best defense, despite basically zero help from anyone else on the Cavaliers. LeBron's last game he had 27 points, 19 rebounds, 10 assists. Yeah, he really did quit there...

Bulldust. I watched a game in a totally unrelated sport here and the statistics flattered one side on the weekend because the other side took their foot off the pedal in the last 15 minutes. A 50 point lead shrunk to a 16 point win because one side decided to coast knowing the win was in the bag.

Don't be a daft fool. We all watched LeBron pad his stats. The reality is the Cavs weren't built to win in the playoffs and LeBron knew that. That's why he left.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

We all watched LeBron pad his stats.

So now LeBron is a stat padder? In what way? It's more that he spent 7 years playing with a bunch of stiffs, and his production was a result of having zero help the entire time he was in Cleveland. He had 27 points, 19 rebounds, and 10 assists in game 6 because he was playing his heart out, not getting cheap stats.

Just do a quick search and look at what his teammates did in the 2010 playoffs: nothing.

 

[BradyManny]

Pippen still led the Bulls to game 7 of the Eastern Conference finals

Not so - that was a Pacers-Knicks ECF that year.

Pippen's a great player, but did nothing w/o MJ. They won 55 games in 93/94 w/ Jordan gone; 47 games in 94/95 w/ MJ missing the most of the regular season. Enusing year, Jordan's first full season back, they won 72 games.

That team was Jordan.

 

[ausbacker]

So now LeBron is a stat padder? In what way? It's more that he spent 7 years playing with a bunch of stiffs, and his production was a result of having zero help the entire time he was in Cleveland. He had 27 points, 19 rebounds, and 10 assists in game 6 because he was playing his heart out, not getting cheap stats.

Just do a quick search and look at what his teammates did in the 2010 playoffs: nothing.

He padded his stats from the free throw line. It was widely accepted that LeBron quit. Why do you think the furore surrounding his performances against the Celtics arose? It sure as **** wasn't because LeBron played his heart out. I commented on it because he looked nothing like the LeBron I've become accustomed to seeing.

The Cavs being crap come finals has nothing to do with LeBron quitting. Nothing.

 

[BradyManny]

This is such a bullcrap argument, that somehow I wasn't watching the same game. A few people raised the issue of LeBron quitting, yes, but it doesn't make it true, and I think those accusations were just as BS and off-target as the 'Randy Moss is a quitter' national mediot accusations, after Moss had bad games this past season. A player doesn't just coast and put up the numbers LeBron did against the Celtics. They still lasted 6 games against the league's best defense, despite basically zero help from anyone else on the Cavaliers. LeBron's last game he had 27 points, 19 rebounds, 10 assists. Yeah, he really did quit there...

Yes, how noble of the #1 seed Cavs to put up such a good fight in the 2nd round of the NBA playoffs. Bravo....

Again, I don't think you watched the games, I really don't, you haven't refuted it yet, so I'm just going to maintain that premise because the stats don't tell the story. I agree Lebron had a decent statistical game in game 6 - though the rebounds were more of an anomaly.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

He padded his stats from the free throw line. It was widely accepted that LeBron quit.

Both statements are unsubstantiated and have zero fact to back it up. I agree with you that SOME media pundits questioned whether LeBron quit, but that has just as much credibility (basically none) as the same idiot media saying Randy Moss is still a loser and a quitter and a choker, after his bad games this past season playing with a separated shoulder. These aren't facts or widely accepted, you're taking a few people's opinions about LeBron and raising it up as absolute truth and fact.

The one game I will agree with you that LeBron basically just gave up, was game 5. However, it was clear that he was frustrated with Mike Brown's coaching moves, and probably dead tired from having to single handedly beat the Celtics' league best defense all by himself with zero help from anyone else. You can clearly see during one timeout in game 5 where LeBron's eyes light up wide, incredulous that Brown keeps Shaq in over Redick. Paul Pierce did something far more egregious during the Lakers series, basically pouting and quitting because he wasn't getting the plays.

It's funny how everyone paints Kobe as this ultra dedicated player who does everything to win, and LeBron is a quitter, when by pretty much every individual measure LeBron outplayed Kobe in the 2010 playoffs. It's also interesting that Dwayne Wade or Dwight Howard don't get the quitter label, despite the same fate upon them of getting shut down by the league's best defense in the playoffs.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

I agree Lebron had a decent statistical game in game 6 - though the rebounds were more of an anomaly.

"Decent statistical game"? That's like saying Rondo's historic playoff triple double was merely a decent statistical performance.

You don't get 19 rebounds by having the ball fall into your lap. Rebounds almost all require physical play or effort. Putting up a triple double with 27 points, 19 rebounds, and 10 assists in Game 6 isn't just a "decent" game, performances like that happen only a handful of times in an entire season.

 

[BradyManny]

"Decent statistical game"? That's like saying Rondo's historic playoff triple double was merely a decent statistical performance.

You don't get 19 rebounds by having the ball fall into your lap. Rebounds almost all require physical play or effort. Putting up a triple double with 27 points, 19 rebounds, and 10 assists in Game 6 isn't just a "decent" game, performances like that happen only a handful of times in an entire season.

Lebron James is 6'8, 250 LBS forward, Rondo is a 6'1, 170 LBS point guard. There is a huge difference when one of them has a huge rebounding nite.

Again, if you watched the game, you wouldn't have found Lebron's rebounding effort as impressive as you make it. I'm not trying to take anything away from him, 19 boards is a monster effort - it just didn't impact the game much at all. Mo Williams also had 7 rebounds that game. Which, likewise, was an anomaly for him. The two of them were cleaning up Celtics misses, probably much of it was circumstance, the defense dictated them to be down low more (Rondo lived in the paint that night). Unlike Rondo's triple-double game, their rebounding did not change the game. Mo/Lebron were getting boards that were going Cleveland's way anyway - in the Rondo game, he was stealing boards away with his athleticism, that no other Celtic was going to get. There was a reason why Lebron's 19 boards were "quiet" - because none of them changed the outcome of a play and/or game.

And again, I know this, because I actually viewed said game.

You're also conveniently omitting the part about Lebron having 9 turnovers, which is probably the only stat that did have any affect on the game, and ironically, the only one you won't mention. The C's doubled their production on fast break points, and the 22 TOs the Cavs committed set the tempo for the game and allowed Rondo to be Rondo.

 

[BradyManny]

It's funny how everyone paints Kobe as this ultra dedicated player who does everything to win, and LeBron is a quitter, when by pretty much every individual measure LeBron outplayed Kobe in the 2010 playoffs.

You sound like a Colts fan trying to convince people that Manning is a better playoff player than Brady.

Stats are completely pointless in a vacuum - minus the W/L, of course.

 

[BradyManny]

No it isn't. Gasol is the best power forward in the NBA and Bynum is quickly becoming a top three center in the league, when healthy. I don't understand how you can possibly say that Artest isn't very good after what he did for them against the Celtics in the Finals, both defensively and offensively.



Fisher is a three point threat and, yes, he is very clutch come playoff time. Who is Cleveland's Derek Fisher?



Shannon Brown, Lamar Odom, and Sasha Vujacic are pretty solid. I wouldn't call it non-existant, but there are better benches in the league.

First, I'm not arguing that LA's supporting cast isn't better than Cleveland's, it is. The core they have is a true big 3 now, which is why they defeated the Celts and couldn't in 2008. It's just not as deep as it's made out to be. And I do think that over the course of an 82 game season, without Kobe, its probably slightly above a .500 team. We'll see what Cleveland is without Lebron, to some extent, though pieces of that team are going to defect, so we won't get the whole story.

Gasol is a great player, no doubt - amongst the top few PFs in the league. But even he was neutralized for huge chunks of the series by KG.

Cleveland's Derek Fisher could've been be Mo, Delonte or Anthony Parker. You'll have to ask Lebron why he can't succeed with those guys.

As for Artest, I thought he was downright awful for most of the series, until Game 6 & 7, which was mostly an aberration. I also think his defense is not what it once used to be. To be honest, Pierce had no more or less success with Walton on him.

I agree Bynum is a potentially top-center. His potential, especially if he's healthy, makes the Lakers a very scary team going forward.

And that's why, as it is - with Bynum-Gasol-Kobe at the core, I still think the Lakers are the favorite.

But, if Lebron were the player he supposedly is, the player he markets himself as, then the other 10 quality players on his squad should've been enough to advance past the Celtics and Magic to meet (and probably lose to) LA in the Finals.

 

[ausbacker]

Both statements are unsubstantiated and have zero fact to back it up. I agree with you that SOME media pundits questioned whether LeBron quit, but that has just as much credibility (basically none) as the same idiot media saying Randy Moss is still a loser and a quitter and a choker, after his bad games this past season playing with a separated shoulder. These aren't facts or widely accepted, you're taking a few people's opinions about LeBron and raising it up as absolute truth and fact.

The one game I will agree with you that LeBron basically just gave up, was game 5. However, it was clear that he was frustrated with Mike Brown's coaching moves, and probably dead tired from having to single handedly beat the Celtics' league best defense all by himself with zero help from anyone else. You can clearly see during one timeout in game 5 where LeBron's eyes light up wide, incredulous that Brown keeps Shaq in over Redick. Paul Pierce did something far more egregious during the Lakers series, basically pouting and quitting because he wasn't getting the plays.

It's funny how everyone paints Kobe as this ultra dedicated player who does everything to win, and LeBron is a quitter, when by pretty much every individual measure LeBron outplayed Kobe in the 2010 playoffs. It's also interesting that Dwayne Wade or Dwight Howard don't get the quitter label, despite the same fate upon them of getting shut down by the league's best defense in the playoffs.

That's not what the statistics and opinions of mediots around the world scribed... in the their hundreds. LeBron quit because I watched it with my very eyes. There was no intensity, no intent, no hard running, no pushing the floor.. all things you would have seen if you watched the game rather than refer to the statistics column.

What a daft fool you are becoming.

 

[Kontradiction]

First, I'm not arguing that LA's supporting cast isn't better than Cleveland's, it is. The core they have is a true big 3 now, which is why they defeated the Celts and couldn't in 2008. It's just not as deep as it's made out to be. And I do think that over the course of an 82 game season, without Kobe, its probably slightly above a .500 team. We'll see what Cleveland is without Lebron, to some extent, though pieces of that team are going to defect, so we won't get the whole story.

Agreed. They played pretty well when he was injured. But without Kobe they would be lucky to make the playoffs as the last seed in the Western Conference.

Gasol is a great player, no doubt - amongst the top few PFs in the league. But even he was neutralized for huge chunks of the series by KG.

Really? I only saw that happen in one game. Otherwise, Gasol pretty much abused Garnett.

Cleveland's Derek Fisher could've been be Mo, Delonte or Anthony Parker. You'll have to ask Lebron why he can't succeed with those guys.

It would be Mo. Delonte and Parker were not anywhere near consistent enough to be Cleveland's version of Derek Fisher in the playoffs. But it wasn't Cleveland's version of Derek Fisher that I was trying to use to make my point. He had that. It's Cleveland's version of Pau Gasol and Andrew Bynum that he didn't have. That is where his supporting cast in Cleveland failed and that is where his supporting cast in Miami succeeds.

As for Artest, I thought he was downright awful for most of the series, until Game 6 & 7, which was mostly an aberration. I also think his defense is not what it once used to be. To be honest, Pierce had no more or less success with Walton on him.

It could very well have been that Pierce was just tired. Those legs are older now and have recorded a lot of minutes over the last couple of years. But I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt when I credit Artest with great defense in the series. You could even see the frustration on Pierce's face at times.

I agree Bynum is a potentially top-center. His potential, especially if he's healthy, makes the Lakers a very scary team going forward.

Indeed. Once again, the Lakers are going to be tough to beat next year.

And that's why, as it is - with Bynum-Gasol-Kobe at the core, I still think the Lakers are the favorite.

Agreed again. Until someone knocks them off, they're the champions. But one should admit that Miami matches up well with them at several spots.

But, if Lebron were the player he supposedly is, the player he markets himself as, then the other 10 quality players on his squad should've been enough to advance past the Celtics and Magic to meet (and probably lose to) LA in the Finals.

Like I said, L.A.'s supporting cast around Kobe from 2006-2007 was comparable to LeBron's supporting cast in Cleveland. I think we can both agree that Kobe is on the top tier all by himself. If Kobe couldn't get it done in L.A. with that type of supporting cast, then it seems pretty unfair to expect LeBron to have gotten it done with the supporting cast he had in Cleveland.