OT: Freeney signed: 6-yrs/$72M, $30M guaranteed

[Miguel]

I'm waiting for miguel to come on this thread and start defending the colts about how much they're saving, blah blah blah

FYI - If it were not for PatFanKen's request for information, I would not posted in this thread because your post typifies that the hostility that I have received from my fellow Patriots fans.

 

[Flying Fungi]

FYI - If it were not for PatFanKen's request for information, I would not posted in this thread because your post typifies that the hostility that I have received from my fellow Patriots fans.

I will counter with:

I am grateful to have access to your expertise and appreciate the balance in your posts.

 

[Ring 6]

FYI - If it were not for PatFanKen's request for information, I would not posted in this thread because your post typifies that the hostility that I have received from my fellow Patriots fans.

Miguel,
Ignore them.
I imagine just about every poster on this board uses the information you work hard to provide.
You are as entitled to your opinion as anyone, and imo, MORE entitled to it on this board where you contribute so much.
My opinion has always been that you give an honest untainted opinion.
Since most of this board questions the Colts cap approach, and you are the most knowledgement person I know of regarding the cap, if your honest opinion is that the Colts cap management, while totally different from the Pats, seems to be working, I trust your opinion.
If that seems "Anti-Pats" unfortunately you get a backlash. I've always thought you were giving cap analysis, not 'supporting' the Colts.

 

[Ring 6]

May I suggest researching the last part of your statement as it relates to cash received in 2007 as compared to cash received in 2006??

May I suggest researching how much the Colts have spent in cash over the years in comparison to the league rather than focus on one year??



All I can add is that there were so many teams that did not spend that the 2007/2008/2009/2010/2011 caps were adjusted up by $134,000.

FYI - I typically do not comment on deals right after they are announced because of the fluff/agent factor.

I have not studied this at all, but here is my impression.

The Colts are putting some very large contracts out there. NFL contracts are typically heavily backloaded, and the Colts are no exception.
The danger in this is (IMO):
-If a player is no longer worth the big contract in the later years you would take a dead money hit to cut them
-If the player is still good, but the contract is excessive (I would imagine the reported Freeny deal grows to 15mill or so cap hits in the later years) you may not be able to afford him any longer. You could restructure, but create a bigger issue under #1.
-If you have too many highly paid guys, you must skimp on the rest of your roster. Typically, a few stars and a bunch of jags has not been a winning formula.
Those issues have led other teams into cap hell. My impression is that most cap hells came from overpaying old players on long term deals that they were no where near worth after a year or to.
Cap hell takes a long time to pull out of

My impression of the colts approach is that they are fine with a top eavy roster, with a multitude of cheap young players, late picks, UDFAs etc. I suppose they could go on doing this as long as the win the gamble that their stars will carry them.
Their biggest gamble, IMO, is when you have players with huge cap numbers, they better live up to contract, or you have very little room to manuever your roster and upgrade it.

I think time will tell. I don't think its a forgone conclusion that there is a cap implosion waiting to happen, but I think its a distinct possiblity.

 

[DaBruinz]

Re: OT: Freeney signed: 6yr/$72M, $30M guaranteed

Yep, nothing like getting dominated by a Pro Bowler...

Again, the Pro-Bowl means very little other than a free paid vacation to Hawaii. Light was like the 3rd or 4th option at LT last year. When there is only 16 in your division, that's not saying much.

 

[solman]

Re: OT: Freeney signed: 6yr/$72M, $30M guaranteed

This is an accurate take on Freeney IMO. I'm sure some pseudo expert/Colts fan will try to come along and dispute later on in the thread, however.

I can't believe I have to weigh in on the side of a Colt.

Freeney didn't produce huge numbers last season because teams built their game plan around him. They did this because:

1. He is incredibly good and
2. The rest of the Colt's defense isn't.

I don't think that this is a bad deal for the Colts. It isn't a bargain, but the risk of an injury and/or diminished performance is mitigated by Freeney's extraordinary talent.

I'd like to see how the deal was structured. I'm guessing the cap hits will be something like: $6M, $7M, $11M, $13M, $17M, $19M.

Certainly this doesn't fix Indy's cap situation, but they are getting a HUGE amount of talent over two years compared to the $13M (guestimated) cap hit.

If the goal is to have 2-3 seasons of super bowl caliber teams, this was a very good deal. But I still don't think it will get the job done. (i.e. I still predict no more than 1 playoff win for the Colts over the next three seasons).

 

[Water Boy]

-If you have too many highly paid guys, you must skimp on the rest of your roster. Typically, a few stars and a bunch of jags has not been a winning formula.

Except for the Colts last year.

 

[Ring 6]

Re: OT: Freeney signed: 6yr/$72M, $30M guaranteed

Again, the Pro-Bowl means very little other than a free paid vacation to Hawaii. Light was like the 3rd or 4th option at LT last year. When there is only 16 in your division, that's not saying much.

Are you kidding?
The 3rd or 4th best player at a position in a conference is a very good player.
If any team had the 3rd or 4th best in their conference at every position on the field, they would be unbeatable.
And by the way, LT in the AFC isnt exactly a conference where being 3rd or 4th means you are behind 2-3 slugs.

 

[Ring 6]

Except for the Colts last year.

One of the reasons I said typically. However, I dont think the Colts are exactly that description quite yet. They have a decent group of pretty good players that aren't the highly paid guys.
I think they are moving in that direction.
The best thing the Colts have done, IMO, isnt getting the stars put together, but they have done a good job with their late picks, and UDFAs.

 

[RyanTheColtsFan]

That's some homer-free analysis I figure most Colts fans won't criticize it because a) they have their star DE back and b) they've won the SB anyways so the organization is bulletproof (for now).

Our star DE is Robert Mathis.

Someone posted the stats from the last three years between the two.

 

[RyanTheColtsFan]

* So Ryan, do you think the Colts panicked a little so they could get teh extra cap space over the franchise number?

I can't comment because I have no idea what they were thinking. I understand Freeney had a tremendous rookie and sophomore campaign but come on. This kind of cash for a guy who can't stop the run and hasn't had star sack numbers in years?

Colts fans hate me because I wanted to let Harrison play out his deal and walk. Same with Freeney. Neither are worth this much cash.

 

[Bo0MeR]

I can't comment because I have no idea what they were thinking. I understand Freeney had a tremendous rookie and sophomore campaign but come on. This kind of cash for a guy who can't stop the run and hasn't had star sack numbers in years?

Colts fans hate me because I wanted to let Harrison play out his deal and walk. Same with Freeney. Neither are worth this much cash.

I have to disagree with you. Freeney is the biggest cog in the defensive unit and he earned the money he got. Its funny to see the contrasting views of the posters in this thread as most analysts have said that this was a good deal for the colts as it saved them millions in cap space and will ALLOW the colts to possibly bringing back Glenn and Sanders & Clark next season

Offenses must change thweir gameplan to defend Freeney. He is a force no matter how many sacks he records. Even last year with his lower sack total he still led the team in Quarterback pressures (33)

You can't measure freeneys impact by his sack total alone, which has been monster except for last season. He draws countless doubleteams and attention, and changes the whole dynamic of the game. he deserved the money

 

[PatsFanInVa]

I have to diagree with you. Freeney is the biggest cog in the defensive unit and he earned the money he got. Its funny to see the cotrasting views of the posters in this thread as most analysts have said that this was a good deal for the colts as it saved them millions in cap space and will ALLOW the colts to possibly bringing back Glenn and Sanders & Clark next season

Offenses must change thweir gameplan to defend Freeney. He is a force no matter how many sacks he records. Even last year with his lower sack total he still led the team in Quarterback pressures (33)

You can't measure freeneys impact by his sack total alone, which has been monster except for last season. He draws countless doubleteams and attention, and changes the whole dynamic of the game. he deserved the money

Sound familiar, Seymour fans?

I don't think Freeney is in the same league, myself. But that's because Sey's job is to control gaps and set up plays for linebackers, while making a substantial push at the QB in appropriate situations. Freeney really only does one thing well -- but the Colts have a different D, one that's flawed by that overemphasis on pursuit of the QB on play after play.

Different D, different skill set valued. We'll take Sey's versatility, smarts, power, and athleticism. You guys take The Guy That Can Spin Around And Then Run Straight At the QB Real Fast.

All kidding aside, it seems like the Colts FO has overpaid to me, but I am looking at it from the perspective of a guy who thinks he "gets" what the Pats are doing, at least some of it.

The Colts are not a lesser version of the Pats, making the same moves for the same reasons. They see Freeny as worth locking up.

They're also going to look just fine paying him this much in retrospect. cap dollars are going through the roof. But the Colts can't keep gobbling up the new cap money and stay cap-solvent.

They know this though. Not every new deal gets done the same year. Peyton takes a restructure to get Freeney done. You get the idea. And yes, depth might be weaker in Indy than in NE... and that might be part of their model.

But then, they are the SB champions. They can't be doing everything wrong.

PFnV

PS, I want our hardware back.

 

[patfanken]

FYI - If it were not for PatFanKen's request for information, I would not posted in this thread because your post typifies that the hostility that I have received from my fellow Patriots fans.

I didn't ask my questions with any bias or agenda in mind. All I know is that the Colts have paid heavily for their skill position players, and the only thing different between the Pats and Colts success over the last 7 years are 2 more superbowls

Clearly they do it differently than we do, however just as clearly it seems to be working for them. My questions for Miguel was to ask for his expertise as to HOW they do it. We have a clue at least, for the Pats in how THEY do it, based on information we have inferred from books, articles and interviews, but I have NO F##cking idea how the Colts are doing it. Sometimes it dosen't seem like the cap applies to them.

I was hoping that Miguel would provide some insight on how they are managing to put off "judgement day" for so long, and can they continue to put it off. He implied that he has done this before, but I must have missed it.

BTW- if any Pats fans have given Miguel grief for his opinions on anything to do with the Cap, be careful, because Miguel knows more than 95% of us, and I haven't met any of the OTHER 5%.

 

[JackPMiller]

Forget Merriman. I wonder how much Julius Peppers of the Carolina Panthers is worth? I feel he is the best DE in the NFL. Hell, this guy plays on offense to on occasion as a TE, Freeney does not.

 

[Flying Fungi]

Offenses must change their gameplan to defend Freeney.

darn right--without Freeney, who do you run the ball right at?

Polian apologists like you will never admit that paying #1 money for the #8~15 defensive player in the league is bad policy.

 

[PatsSteve1]

FYI - If it were not for PatFanKen's request for information, I would not posted in this thread because your post typifies that the hostility that I have received from my fellow Patriots fans.

* Well, Miguel if you want to avoid the hostility you'll have to stop posting the truth -

 

[BB_dynasty]

I have to disagree with you. Freeney is the biggest cog in the defensive unit and he earned the money he got. Its funny to see the contrasting views of the posters in this thread as most analysts have said that this was a good deal for the colts as it saved them millions in cap space and will ALLOW the colts to possibly bringing back Glenn and Sanders & Clark next season

Offenses must change thweir gameplan to defend Freeney. He is a force no matter how many sacks he records. Even last year with his lower sack total he still led the team in Quarterback pressures (33)

You can't measure freeneys impact by his sack total alone, which has been monster except for last season. He draws countless doubleteams and attention, and changes the whole dynamic of the game. he deserved the money

I have to disagree with you, to get #1 money you should have to be #1

 

[Water Boy]

One of the reasons I said typically.

Understood. I wasn't refuting your post.

However, I dont think the Colts are exactly that description quite yet. They have a decent group of pretty good players that aren't the highly paid guys.
I think they are moving in that direction. The best thing the Colts have done, IMO, isnt getting the stars put together, but they have done a good job with their late picks, and UDFAs.

I agree. Especially on the offensive side of the ball. In addition to the money guys - Manning, Harrison and Wayne, they have a very good offensive line (Glenn, Saturday et. al), Dallas Clark and Joseph Aadai. They were able to win the Super Bowl with a JAG no name defense.

 

[Bo0MeR]

I have to disagree with you, to get #1 money you should have to be #1

Freeney won't stay the highest paid defense player too long, it was only inevitable someone would surpass the Nate Clemens. The way the salary cap continues to rise this was a good deal for the Colts, if someone else signed before him this could have driven his price up significantly, instead he sets the stage for the rest of the defensive players and their future contracts