OT - Fantastic web-site, diabolical use of the English language ;)

[BelichickFan]

But the Patriots (even thou they are a team) are plural rather than singular.

Which means that "are" must be used rather than "is"

Why MUST the British always be right ? Again, I was born there - although I have renounced my British citizenship.

Maybe this will end it :

Collective Nouns : Grammar Girl :: Quick and Dirty Tips

"Adding to the complexity of this issue is that Americans and Britons handle it differently.

Americans tend to treat collective nouns as single units, so it’s more common to use the singular verb unless you’re definitely talking about individuals (3). So in America you would be more likely to hear “The faculty is meeting today” than “The faculty are meeting today.”

In British usage, however, it’s the opposite; it’s more common to use the plural verb (4). In fact, some sentences that are perfectly correct in Britain would be considered incorrect in America (3). Take “Cambridge are winning the boat race.” Although I spent my elementary-school years in London, I have been fully Americanized, so this sentence doesn’t sound right to me. As an American, I would say, “Cambridge is winning.”"

You're on an American based board. So suck it up and accept it.

 

[Pewsterbaby]

I'd be careful there. You could be describing almost any poor, rural area in the country, including some not all that far from Massachusetts.

As for the South, yes, it is a real cultural and literary wasteland, or as you would put it, using the bad grammar of your third sentence: "there's never any writers or artists from the south." (If you are going to comment on "literacy" you should be properly "literate" yourself.)

Of course, for that to be true, you would have to ignore: William Faulkner, Thomas Wolfe, William Styron, Flannery O'Connor, James ****ey, Tennessee Williams, Truman Capote, Alice Walker, Robert Penn Warren, John Grisham, Margaret Mitchell, Harper Lee, Buddy Holly, Little Richard, Elvis Presley, Ray Charles, James Brown, Otis Redding, Jerry Lee Lewis, Hank Williams, Willie Nelson, Scott Joplin, Wayland Jennings and Johnny Cash, to name a few. And, don't forget Rhythm and Blues, Bluegrass and Jazz while you're at it; these distinctly American musical genres all owe their origins or the majority of their development to the south.

Wow! What a can of worms I opened up over here yesterday. After I made that initial comment, I didn't dare come over here the remainder of the day. I thought I was gonna run into a lynch mob (well, perchance that's not a very good choice of words, taking into consideration the topic).
I was just watching my copy of a 1969 Johnny Cash documentary. You're right, that IS a phenomenal part of Southern history. Up in NYC, I've always ran around trying to get various chicks to go on take a trip down there with me where we rent an old jalopy or pickup and travel the South only using obscure back roads and hitting all the backwoods Southern juke joints late at night. I wanna throw it down while Blues bands tear it up up on makeshift stages in those places.
I was named after Robert Johnson. My middle and last name. All those Southern musical legends and Delta Blues characters is the BEST America has to offer. Stuff seen in the flicks "Crossroads" and "Black Snake Moan".

And during my years at N.C. State, we'd take the corvette and drive down to Myrtle Beach only using tree-lined rolling back roads on late moonlit nights and arrive at daybreak. That was gorgeous country.
Oh, and the chicks in backwoods towns are mighty hospitable, if ya know what I mean. Cowboy boots tucked into tight jeans and a Charlie Daniels black t-shirt. Most with hardly nuthin' upstairs, wearing big approachable "come hither" smiles . Can't go wrong there either.
And the cigarettes are cheap and freshly cut too.
And hush puppies taste great.

Yesterday, I was all scared I made Kontra mad and I was gonna feel the wrath of God over here. I came over this morning, put my hand over my eyes and read the replies peeking through the cracks in between my fingers. Hey Kontra, and the rest of the crew, thanks for letting me live another day on Patsfans.

 

[Tunescribe]

Sure you can. The New England Patriots is a singular noun that refers to a group, much like the word "family", or "band", or "organization".

Substitute in "the team" for New England. We wouldn't say "the team are in Atlanta", and that's exactly what New England is referring to. Either way, you're talking about an American site, about an American team, in an American region, so American rules apply

STOP USING BRITISH PUNCTUATION! It's ," and ." NOT ", or ".

 

[Pewsterbaby]

As for the South, yes, it is a real cultural and literary wasteland, or as you would put it, using the bad grammar of your third sentence: "there's never any writers or artists from the south." (If you are going to comment on "literacy" you should be properly "literate" yourself.)

PatsFanSince74, I dunno what comment you're referring to. None of what you quote is seen in my 3rd sentence.

#1. I never said it was a LITERARY wasteland. In a sentence, my second, as I recall, I said Arkansas was last in LITERACY. Hence, "the condition or quality of being literate, esp. the ability to read or write". As in, last STATE ranking in the national LITERACY rate. I'm well aware of all the damn writers and artists in The South. PatsFanSince74, they're few and far between, PER CAPITA speaking. That's the main reason why I left and came north. Problem was, I couldn't find enough people to discuss those types of things with down there. It was like the rest of the world didn't exist. And they pronounced the "LT" in Reneault, for crissakes. You know,like most culturally challenged jocks around here don't know how to pronounce the last name LeVoir.

#2. I said the South, outside college campus borders, was a vapid cultural wasteland. And I'll stand by that. I'll stand firm and stand pat on my stance. PatsFan, I NEVER said, as you fallaciously quoted,"There's never any writers or artists from the south." I never would have said that. You're making stuff up and putting words in my mouth?

And all y'all can kiss my 1330 SAT's next time you wanna correct my grammar (which wasn't wrong in the first place. I'm well aware of the difference between "literary" and "literacy". Yeah, there'll be the occasional typing error or in improper tense or whatever outta me over here. I don't reread posts before I send them, for the most part.

Oh, and PatsFanSince74, if you wanna REALLY be a weizenheimer (sp), go ahead, ask me what I actually DID with those 1330 SAT's. I love answering that one, Mr. I Live In A Condo With **** Stockton.

"Literate", indeed. I should print out the initial comment I made and your reply. I'd track down Stockton in Manhattan and show them to him. Maybe next time he'll blow you off in the elevator. Putting words in my mouth. I thought more of you before that one, lemme tell ya.

 

[Pewsterbaby]

That's "Renault" up there. And no, I didn't originally think there was an extra "e" in there. See this? I gotta start proofreading my posts from now on? No way.
And as of this post, they STILL pronounce the "lt" on the end of that down there. That's cultural suicide where I come from. I dunno about you.
Like all you guys pronouncing The Pats Levoir with the "r". Go to France and do that.

 

[TBradyOwnsYou]

 

[Pewsterbaby]

TBOwnsYou, that's because you're an apollonian male. This topic is more along the lines of what dionysian males discuss/argue about. Now be good and Google the dichotomy of the 2 differing types of male personalities.
Funny pic tho.

 

[Ian]

But the Patriots (even thou they are a team) are plural rather than singular.

Which means that "are" must be used rather than "is"

-----------

Its happened again

"Brady no longer great in the play-offs"

Which is in itself, a question.

Which means we need an "Is" to begin the sentence with

Wow, I really didn't read this until now....it's actually kind of funny. It's good to know a potential error from something I wrote could spark a thread with 46+ posts like this. I guess get ready for others, because I'm sure there will be more.

Since the team was being referred to as a singular collective entity, that's the reason why it was used that way in that sentence. I understand your reasoning, but I didn't feel that gramtically it made sense in that sentence to use "are" in referring to the club that way. I know we could go back and forth - but since I'm not up for a Pulitzer prize (nor do I see that in my future) I guess there's no point in really debating it.

As for the Brady headline, that's a headline that was created with my intention to be either a statement or a question to grab the attention of a reader - hence the reason why "Is" was left out. The ironic thing about that is the column more or less criticizes the same attention grabbing statement that was made on air yesterday that had to only have been said to irrititate the people who were listening and create controversy. If you read it you'll understand why.

Otherwise I appreciate you bringing this to my attention - although next time if you just PM me that would be fine as well

 

[TBradyOwnsYou]

TBOwnsYou, that's because you're an apollonian male. This topic is more along the lines of what dionysian males discuss/argue about. Now be good and Google the dichotomy of the 2 differing types of male personalities.
Funny pic tho.

I'd argue that this is more apollonian type arguement than a dionysian arguement myself. I'm curious as to what brings you to your conclusion?

 

[lillestroom]

As an aside... look at what happens when you dont take the time to learn the Queens English

YouTube - Banned Commercials - Learn English

YouTube - Banned Commercials - Learn English

 

[Mike the Brit]

Welcome to America. Absolutely nobody would say "The Patriots is in Atlanta." But for collective nouns in singular form Americans not only can, but should go with "is."

The singular isn't even as optional as some in this thread have suggested. A plural verb is technically grammatical, but only used in cases that clearly describe action by the group members as individuals, rather than a collective: "the team are squabbling among themselves over the rookie haircuts." Even in those situations, some American experts advise recasting the sentence to avoid the awkwardness of the seeming subject-verb disagreement. So "New England are in Atlanta" isn't a real option in American English.

Oh, and headlines have a grammar entirely unto themselves in which articles and auxiliary verbs are not required.

Ah, I see, so "The Patriots are playing ...", "New England is playing" -- "the Beatles are playing", "the Clash is playing". Now help me out, please: should I say "the Fab Four is playing" or "are"? And how about the Grateful Dead?

 

[Mike the Brit]

You're on an American based board. So suck it up and accept it.

:yeahthat: as we say in the UK ...

 

[Matw]

This from the same guy who hyphenated the word website?

http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2008/12/12/633646737573835545-GRAMMARNAZIFAIL.jpg

 

[Bostonian1962]

I thought I had an excellent grasp of the English language, and of grammar in general. Having read all the posts, I am now officially and totally confused.

I guess I'm not as smart as me thought me was. Am you?

 

[Pewsterbaby]

I'd argue that this is more apollonian type arguement than a dionysian arguement myself. I'm curious as to what brings you to your conclusion?

Hi TBradyOwnsYou. I've noticed we've been traveling the same places and commenting on the same "not particularly Patriots related" threads which pop up occasionally. Like when we both commented on Kontra and Andy Johnson going at it in meticulous form.
Nice to know somebody has an eye for the same things which interest me around here. I mean, I can't talk football as well as a lot of people here can, so I like to put in my 2 cents 'bout other stuff sometimes. That way I feel like I'm on equal footing with the rest of the guys, who better me in football knowledge.
I'm big of a Pats fan as they come, though. I can't even sit still while they play and have to pace back & forth to keep calm as possible. That's how much I love this team.
And I hope you noticed my apology to you for my saying "You people are all complaining about Kontra & Andy going toe-to-toe last night? I like seeing passion like that in threads. The rest of you are too dry and short by comparison. What? You have something better to do? No you don't. Gimme a show over here."
I momentarily forgot you were in the military and overseas. If I'd remembered, I'd have not lumped you in with the rest of them with my "No, you don't" remark. You cetainly DO have something "better" to do. I just thought I'd repeat my apology once more in case you missed it over there. I thought that was important to add today.
Now, on to your query...
TBradyOwnsYou, the loose definition of "apollonian" is a male who gives more regard for a lifestyle dedicated to male "order", "physical prowess", "dominance", "rigidity", and gives off a general vibe of "dislike of new ideas" and "resistant to change". Apollonian males tend to rule their households where they're the "take charge" alpha male. Apollonian is along those lines. Apollonian males tend to choose careers where they're in positions of AUTHORITY, like the military or law enforcement.
Dionysian males tend to be the more artistic and/or creative types who're more open minded to new ideas and less hesitant to change. They're especially the guys who champion the "wine, women, and song" lifestyle. The modern version of that is "sex, drugs, and Rock & Roll". The dionysian male is more likely to choose a career where they're a writer, a musician, an artist, a teacher, and generally careers which welcome different personal interpretation, discussion, and loose and/or shared delegation of AUTHORITY. Less of a "take charge" type of guy and more of one who wants toknow what everyone else thinks on the matter.
Another generalization is - Republican people are more apollonian and Democrats are more dionysian in nature.

Taking into consideration your military career choice, I made an assumption that you're more of an apollonian type of guy. And I thought that's probably why you had grown tired of this thread & it's subject matter, hence your funny pic you posted about it.
I could be wrong, naturally, and it was nice to "see" you again on PatsFans.

And Ian, thanks for not deleting this thread altogether as I'm sure everybody's sick of my babbling on and on. Thanks, all y'all. <<<=== Ooo, lookie that. A Southern phrase. lol.

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

The OP is correct but this thread is beyond stupid.

Saying "New England is in Atlanta" doesn't make sense. If you can't figure it out, please go back to school.
"The Patriots are in Atlanta" is grammatically correct.

 

[Pewsterbaby]

Oh, this is right along these same lines...
Last night, before The Pats first possession, Joe Buck said,"Nice first drive for The Falcons. Now, when we come back from break, the DREAMY Tom Brady takes the field for the first time tonight."

That's dionysian in nature. Try to imagine a tough apollonian guy saying that. For example, Troy Aikman, standing next to Buck, woulda never said that. Troy is more apollonian than Buck is.

Okay, ima shut up now. lol.

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

Oh, this is right along these same lines...
Last night, before The Pats first possession, Joe Buck said,"Nice first drive for The Falcons. Now, when we come back from break, the DREAMY Tom Brady takes the field for the first time tonight."

I thought that was a little lame too.

 

[BradyFTW!]

But the Patriots (even thou they are a team) are plural rather than singular.

Which means that "are" must be used rather than "is"

-----------

Its happened again

"Brady no longer great in the play-offs"

Which is in itself, a question.

Which means we need an "Is" to begin the sentence with

In American English, you are simply wrong. There is no room for difference of opinion. Period. Singular nouns that refer to collective groups are considered singular, end of story. That means that the singular verb is correct.

The OP is correct but this thread is beyond stupid.

Saying "New England is in Atlanta" doesn't make sense. If you can't figure it out, please go back to school.
"The Patriots are in Atlanta" is grammatically correct.

Before you throw out the "go back to school" line, you should probably double check to make sure that you're actually right (you aren't).

You wouldn't say "The Patriots is in Atlanta" because Patriots is plural (hence the s on the end of it ). You would say "the team is in Atlanta". This is literally elementary school stuff; I can understand folks from the UK not catching on since they do it differently, but Americans really should know this.

 

[Ian]

Ok. Since it was something I wrote that started this thread, I guess I'll be the one to close it so we can move along and talk about last night's game