OT: Brian Cushing suspended four games for PEDs

[PATSNUTme]

Damn! Now I'll have to go thru life with folks suspicious I'm a roider

yes, most of us hunks have that cross to bare!

 

[Snake Eyes]

Couple points.

The picture thing is just not an accurate way of forcasting anything. Currently, your comparing a man in his 60's to a young man in his 20's and also comparing his father (who had a different mother) to his son ( who is still about 10 years older than Clay in the picture). Clay sr could have been on something too, we just don't know.

As you said, spikes in production are not the end-all-be-all tell with steriod use. It's the one that I would put the most stock in, though. Strange spikes in production. Ex: Bond hittin 70 homers late in his career.

Bradys dramatic spike in production is easily explainable (moss, welker, o line play, playcalling - etc). Clay sort of exploded out of nowhere and it carried over to the NFL.

I'm not saying he's dirty... however, I would guess he was if you put a gun to my head.

I'm not comparing the 60yr old to the 20yr old, I only put that picture in to show his mother. If his mom was 5'1 and supermodel thin I'd be more suspicious.

As for the 2nd pic of his dad, it shows they have similar builds, while his dad might very well have been on something we don't know, I don't think it makes sense to speculate without something more substantive.

I know Brady exploded due to the addition of Moss & Welker, etc, the point is that stats alone can be misleading, you need to look much deeper into it. I didn't follow Matthews at all when he was in college so I can't comment on it but it could very easily be for reasons other than roids. Cassel exploded over the season he started but I doubt it was steroids but rather simply becoming comfortable with himself and learning to trust the other players around him.

 

[patchick]

This post is a great example of how little people know about steroids and how they affect the human body.

...and his post is a great example of reading the word "steroids" where it was not written.

Seriously, you raked me over the coals for specifying steroids and not understanding the differences among various PEDs when I never said a single word about any particular substance. What's that about?

Here's what I did say: Matthews comes from a family of big dudes. It's always possible that his "big dudeness" kicked in unusually late. But the guy gained 80 lbs of muscle in a truly astonishing physical transformation, the biggest burst coinciding exactly with his friendship with a teammate who we now know was using some unspecified PEDs. Matthews has attributed the dramatic change to committing himself to a weight-training regimen his junior year of college. Yet he grew up in a family of professional football players and had a reputation as a super-hard worker, so he obviously had plenty of weight training before that.

That's all.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

...and his post is a great example of reading the word "steroids" where it was not written.

Seriously, you raked me over the coals for specifying steroids and not understanding the differences among various PEDs when I never said a single word about any particular substance. What's that about?

Roid rage???

 

[PATSNUTme]

yes, his facial features in the first pic look rather boyish, in the 2nd pic he looks like man.

I'm sorry but this doesn't prove anything.

That's what happens when you grow your hair long and have to pull it back.

I don't know, and I guess I'm still disappointed that we passed on him last year. But there is a lot of time to prove me wrong and that usually happens.

I'm just glad that BB finally read my posts here and drafted Spikes.

 

[jays52]

It's pretty clear to me Cushing was a saucehead. The gyno, the mysterious gains, the kind of pump he had in that pic. It's purely speculative, but that puffyness doesn't look like creatine puffyness, it looks like he crashed off of a decca cycle. It starts with ZMA and ends with a four game suspension. Most guys who played college football have had to make moral decisions and find the line they draw. The training and conditioning is so rigorous, everything hinges upon recovery. Everybody takes ZMA and rapid delivery protein. From there it's a personal ethics question. When you add the prospect of making tens of millions of dollars if you do a few cycles, I can understand. I don't like it or agree with it, but I understand.

Matthews to me seems like a natural guy. Late bloomer. There's a lot of that in college. In high school 90% of the game is who progresses through puberty the fastest. In college, a lot of top recruits level off and you see walk-ons or lower priority recruits blossom into elite starters. Matthews in that older picture looks nearly the same as most college linebackers. Maybe a little leaner, but the build looks like it was earned. Was there a lot of suppliments and maybe some andro involved? No doubt, but he doesn't look
like a juicehead to me.

 

[condon84]

1.) Please produce this "new rule".

2.) Please produce evidence to prove that the "new rule" was implemented "specifically to stop our videotaping practice".

3.) The memo was neither a rule nor a regulation.

4.) You should have read the stuff I linked. You'd have been able to avoid making the same tired and refuted arguments that were made more than 2 years ago.

5.) I don't know how smart you thought I was, but I'm smart enough to know that when filming from the end zone is fine, and filming from enclosed areas in the stadium is fine, the issue with filming from the sidelines is about position, not filming. I don't know why this stuff has to be repeated, but just take a look at how the Jets, who were also "caught" filming, were dealt with.

Jets videotaped Patriots last season in Foxborough - NFL - ESPN

Report: Jets caught spying - NFL - Yahoo! Sports

Now, if filming was illegal per se, the Jets would have needed to be punished regardless of any claimed "permission".

6.) The Patriots had been filming since 2000, and had been doing it out in the open enough for people such as Herm Edwards to be able to see it and wave to the camera. If it had been something the league considered contrary to the rules, they had plenty of time to deal with it prior to Goodell deciding to play the part of of the new guy who's just got to get into a pissing contest.

7.)

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/17/sports/football/17nfl.html?pagewanted=print

Now, your arguments were wrong and uninformed. Let's just let this all drop. I don't want to have to continue rehashing spygate. It was a tempest in a teapot, and it's one of Goodell's many idiot moments.

You're spinning this into another discussion. The whole point was that Belichick got caught doing something he wasn't supposed to be doing. I'm not interested in arguing if x y z, then it should have been okay:

Belichick speaks with Goodell, apologizes for videotape flap

Patriots under investigation for following rules, guidelines violations ...
1. Page 105 of the Game Operations manual says: "No video recording devices of any kind are permitted to be in use in the coaches' booth, on the field, or in the locker room during the game." It later says: "All video shooting locations must be enclosed on all sides with a roof overhead."

2. And, a memo from Ray Anderson, NFL head of football operations, to head coaches and GMs on Sept. 6, 2006 said: "Video taping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent’s offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited on the sidelines, in the coaches’ booth, in the locker room, or at any other locations accessible to club staff members during the game."

What he did was against a rule in the NFL Rulebook, a rule that was emphasized in a memo sent to teams prior to 2006 season.

IMO, his excuse was lame. If you think it was a legit reason, so be it.

 

[moosekill]

You're spinning this into another discussion. The whole point was that Belichick got caught doing something he wasn't supposed to be doing. I'm not interested in arguing if x y z, then it should have been okay:

Belichick speaks with Goodell, apologizes for videotape flap



What he did was against a rule in the NFL Rulebook, a rule that was emphasized in a memo sent to teams prior to 2006 season.

IMO, his excuse was lame. If you think it was a legit reason, so be it.

Just stop, no one cares anymore.

 

[moosekill]

Most guys who played college football have had to make moral decisions and find the line they draw. The training and conditioning is so rigorous, everything hinges upon recovery. Everybody takes ZMA and rapid delivery protein. From there it's a personal ethics question. When you add the prospect of making tens of millions of dollars if you do a few cycles, I can understand. I don't like it or agree with it, but I understand.

I agree. If I had been in college and thought wow, if I just take steroids and work real hard I think I will be good enough to play in the NFL, make millions of dollars. That is a real tough call, especially for a 19 year old kid, one who sees his buddies doing it, and can see the results they get.

So, I think it is perfectly fine to punish them, but I can't sit hear and demonize them for using them. In the end they aren't really hurting anyone, other than themselves.

 

[BostonPatriot]

...and his post is a great example of reading the word "steroids" where it was not written.

Seriously, you raked me over the coals for specifying steroids and not understanding the differences among various PEDs when I never said a single word about any particular substance. What's that about?

Here's what I did say: Matthews comes from a family of big dudes. It's always possible that his "big dudeness" kicked in unusually late. But the guy gained 80 lbs of muscle in a truly astonishing physical transformation, the biggest burst coinciding exactly with his friendship with a teammate who we now know was using some unspecified PEDs. Matthews has attributed the dramatic change to committing himself to a weight-training regimen his junior year of college. Yet he grew up in a family of professional football players and had a reputation as a super-hard worker, so he obviously had plenty of weight training before that.

That's all.

Sorry about that. I raked you over the coals for this:

Originally Posted by patchick
Nut, it is absolutely, positively possible that Matthews was a dramatic but natural late bloomer. But in considering the likelihood of that, you have to weigh that his dramatic transformation coincided exactly with the time he became close friends with a teammate who has since been proven a doper.[/

Take a look at Matthews' facial structure early vs. late in his college career:

The points bolded are rediculous at best.

The general public has little to no idea what they are talking about when it comes to steriods. Maybe that fact caused me to go a little overboard with my post. That said, it's nothing personal.

 

[BostonPatriot]

I must say, none of you should get to "high and mighty" over this, because there is a 99.9% chance some of our fav Pats players are currently using testosterone and growth hormone. Undetectable forms of it, of course. Ped's are all over the NFL. I'd say well over 50% of players have used something over the course of their careers(s)

Testing is a joke and you can get around it easily if you've never been caught in the past.

When a player like Rodney claims they only used a compound like growth for "recovery" they are lying through their teeth. Growth is a great way to speed up recovery, but it's also been proven to increase lean muscle tissue (coupled with proper weight training and diet). Simply put, it was an undetectable alternative to test and other steriods.

Often times we wonder how some athletes can stay so lean and muscular through an entire football season, when they are not training with weights, due to fatigue and injuries. Science says muscle tissue is lost when one stops challenging the muscle to grow through weight training. Unless of course you have a huge amount of anabolic substances flowing through your viens. Muscle support and stimulation becomes pretty simple. Steriods were designed for people with muscle wasting diseases.

 

[patchick]

The points bolded are rediculous at best.

The general public has little to no idea what they are talking about when it comes to steriods. Maybe that fact caused me to go a little overboard with my post. That said, it's nothing personal.

Fair enough. I really don't mean to accuse Matthews of anything in particular, and he may indeed be clean. It's just that his transformation was truly astonishing. Even Nut's example of his friend who went through a similar amazing change was about adding 40 lbs. Matthews went from 170 to 243 -- in an environment where his workout buddy was cutting illicit corners.

With Cushing, it's a very different storyline, with widespread accusations of PEDs starting in the middle of high school. If he really did half of what he's been accused of, it's scary to think about the state of his body.

BTW, I also agree with everybody who says that the temptations and promise of rewards are just too great for many kids to resist. And imagine knowing that your competition -- on the field, or for a scholarship -- has this unfair advantage over you. And the only example of "risk" you see is a multi-million$$ guaranteed contract, with a brief suspension?

 

[BostonPatriot]

Fair enough. I really don't mean to accuse Matthews of anything in particular, and he may indeed be clean. It's just that his transformation was truly astonishing. Even Nut's example of his friend who went through a similar amazing change was about adding 40 lbs. Matthews went from 170 to 243 -- in an environment where his workout buddy was cutting illicit corners.

With Cushing, it's a very different storyline, with widespread accusations of PEDs starting in the middle of high school. If he really did half of what he's been accused of, it's scary to think about the state of his body.

BTW, I also agree with everybody who says that the temptations and promise of rewards are just too great for many kids to resist. And imagine knowing that your competition -- on the field, or for a scholarship -- has this unfair advantage over you. And the only example of "risk" you see is a multi-million$$ guaranteed contract, with a brief suspension?

No problem.

I'm with you. I believe there is a pretty good chance Clay got on a little something proir to his senior year. Cush was on the juice for most of his college career, imo.

My point is this: It's very hard to forcast steriod use using changes in a persons body or look. As I outlined in my post, with proper diet and exercise, novice weight lifters with good genetics can make huge changes to their bodies extremley quickly.

Betters "tells" are the gyno, severe acne, and the best of all, huge spikes in production that come out of nowhere. You know, lb's who couldnt make their varsity squad in highschool, did little to nothing for three years at their college, then out of nowhere, blew up their senior year, stormed the combine and made the probowl their first year in the NFL.

That said, Clay could very well be a late bloomer. He has the pedigree and perhaps a little something helped his body to mature. It's been proven that steriods can restart the process of puberty, and if that didn't trigger till later with Clay, it could have been the jumpstart he needed to bloom into the player he is today.

Make no mistake, Clay has the smarts, frame and coordination to be a top player. Those don't come from steriods.

 

[VJCPatriot]

​

Yeah, those pictures say it all...
I also had Cushing off the Pats draft board last year because of the steroid rumors. I wasn't 100% sure that he was using roids, but it was enough of a red flag to take him off my board.

How long do roids stay in the system though? You'd think Cushing would be smart enough to stop using once he got drafted... But a lot of people do dumb things so its hard to know.

 

[PatsCanDoIt]

Jermaine Cunningham got a lot bigger too.

As a senior in high school ~age 17

As a junior at Florida and a year later at rookie camp. ~age 20/21

To me it looks like Jermaine added at least 50lbs in three years. I used to work with a guy that was a former high school wrestler who started working out again at about 24 years old. He made gains like this in a few months without any weight lifting goals. He just went to the gym to blow off steam. Maybe Clay actually wasn't a very hard worker and gym rat early on. Some guys are freaks like that while others like Cushing need help.

 

[Brady2Welker]

Jermaine Cunningham got a lot bigger too.

As a senior in high school ~age 17

As a junior at Florida and a year later at rookie camp. ~age 20/21

To me it looks like Jermaine added at least 50lbs in three years. I used to work with a guy that was a former high school wrestler who started working out again at about 24 years old. He made gains like this in a few months without any weight lifting goals. He just went to the gym to blow off steam. Maybe Clay actually wasn't a very hard worker and gym rat early on. Some guys are freaks like that while others like Cushing need help.

I believe the difference is, Cushing added that weight in a small period of time. 30lbs of muscle over 3 years, at a big college program where they'd have good trainers etc wouldn't be too much of a stretch.

 

[Bostonian1962]

I was blasted here by some people last year for putting pictures of Cushing up in before and after mode. He went from needing a Costanza-Manzere to looking like the incredible hulk.

And yet this was considered a form of bashing to suggest something was off.

Yeah, that happens at times around here. You happened to be right on the money of course.

 

[TriplecHamp]

Snake eyes, great job.

As you can see, Brian is displaying a pretty severe case of gyno. This comes with steriod use by an amateur. After his cycle, his test levels likely dropped through the floor (because his natural system was temp shut down by the juice he was injecting) and his estrogen levels likely spiked through the roof. Viola, you have boobs, just like a women. You see, test is what makes a man a man and estrogen is what makes a woman a woman.

To be fair, gyno is a real condition in males with low test levels and does not always have to do with steriod use. That said, In cushings case, I would say it was from steriod and him not understanding how to deal with coming off a cycle of steriods.

Cushing is a smart dude, if he wasn't smart enough to run a post cycle then shame on him. So disappointed in him.

 

[furley]

My guess, Jairus Byrd would then be awarded the award.

According to Rotoworld...

According to Associated Press advisor Dave Goldberg, the AP may hold a re-vote for the 2009 Defensive Rookie of the Year award.

Goldberg is also a Rookie of the Year voter. A decision isn't expected for a few days "at least," but Brian Cushing is in danger of being stripped of his award after testing positive for a banned substance last September. Cushing insists that it wasn't steroids. The linebacker wouldn't just lose the trophy, he'd also lose incentives based on rookie-year accomplishments.

NFL Defensive Rookie of the Year voting

Player Pos. Team Votes

Brian Cushing LB Texans 39
Jairus Byrd S Bills 6
Clay Matthews LB Packers 3
Brian Orakpo LB Redskins 2

Texans LB Cushing is runaway winner as NFL's top defensive rookie

 

[TrueBeliever]

Comparing the effects of steroids in athletic performance, and the advantages obtained from "spygate" is the most moronic thing I've ever read. Seriously, you should have your posting privileges revoked.

There's a Steelers fan on the CBS Sports forum arguing that Spygate is worse than both steroids AND Big Ben's behavior...