OT: A typical Daniel Graham season

[Remix 6]

they basically put him in same role as here. blocking. Scheffler was the receiving

 

[JoeSixPat]

Please..... There's a reason Graham got that contract, and it's not because Watson was considered a better tight end. I like Watson, but his blocking isn't in the same country, nevermind the same league, as Graham's. Take a gander at the drop in Cutler's sack percentage despite the loss of the team's #1 receiver, the absence of the team's #1 running back for weeks, a new starting center, a new starting left guard and a new starting right guard. But you feel free to keep badmouthing a former Patriot who was a team captain last season. Just ignore the realities and you'll look pretty good doing so.

Looking at the posts in this thread, I'd have to say its you my friend who are in the minority on this one.

Graham himself believes that he's a great all around TE. The coaches of Denver were very clear that they wanted him to be a pass catcher and they were NOT paying him solely as a blocker and had every reason to give him every opportunity to succeed in that role.

Graham couldn't deliver that here, nor there.

He's an excellent blocker - but you don't pay a blocking specialist $6 million a season. Kyle's an excellent blocker too - but although he once was a complete TE now that's all he is - and that's worth about $2.5 mil a season.

At least Brady can say that in his prime he was an allaround TE. Graham's not able to say that yet - I hope he proves me wrong in the future - but I said the same thing when he was leaving and thus far he's been unable to.

 

[Deus Irae]

Looking at the posts in this thread, I'd have to say its you my friend who are in the minority on this one.

Graham himself believes that he's a great all around TE. The coaches of Denver were very clear that they wanted him to be a pass catcher and they were NOT paying him solely as a blocker and had every reason to give him every opportunity to succeed in that role.

Graham couldn't deliver that here, nor there.

He's an excellent blocker - but you don't pay a blocking specialist $6 million a season. Kyle's an excellent blocker too - but although he once was a complete TE now that's all he is - and that's worth about $2.5 mil a season.

At least Brady can say that in his prime he was an allaround TE. Graham's not able to say that yet - I hope he proves me wrong in the future - but I said the same thing when he was leaving and thus far he's been unable to.

Being in the minority has never been a problem for me. I never did care about being one of the herd. Also, your claim that Brady was ever a 'complete tight end' tells me all I need to know about your knowledge of this situation and position. Brady's best receiving year got him an 11.4 ypc, and was the only time he averaged over 11 yards per catch. His 'best' season was with a 7-9 team, which pretty much says it all about his skills. Graham's career average is above 11 ypc. Brady has also played 13 seasons and has only 2 seasons with more than Graham's high of 38 receptions. Graham is now, and always will be, a better tight end than Brady ever was. There's a reason that Brady was considered a bust in New York, and it's not because he developed a "complete" game.

 

[Dragda]

I was upset that we traded up to draft him. I was not impressed with him in college. I wasn't impressed with him as a pro. I warmed to his stellar blocking, but a lot of guys can block.

 

[dtbrks]

I liked Graham and hoped he could become a good pass catching tightend, but he really hasn't proven to be that.

In the end, I think Thomas will be our best catching tightend, over the two first round picked TE's.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Being in the minority has never been a problem for me. I never did care about being one of the herd. Also, your claim that Brady was ever a 'complete tight end' tells me all I need to know about your knowledge of this situation and position. Brady's best receiving year got him an 11.4 ypc, and was the only time he averaged over 11 yards per catch. His 'best' season was with a 7-9 team, which pretty much says it all about his skills. Graham's career average is above 11 ypc. Brady has also played 13 seasons and has only 2 seasons with more than Graham's high of 38 receptions. Graham is now, and always will be, a better tight end than Brady ever was. There's a reason that Brady was considered a bust in New York, and it's not because he developed a "complete" game.

Wow - you're really stretching here.

In his prime for 6 seasons in Jacksonville Kyle Brady was a better blocker than he is now - and pretty much everyone agrees he's nearly as good as Dan Graham even though he's in his 13th season.

During that 6 season period he averaged about 40 catches per season.

That's quite a stretch to disregard those stats and instead grasp to suggest that becaue Brady "only" surpassed Graham's ONE year as a respectable receiver twice he's not as good as Graham.

Like many TEs Graham and Brady both average between 10-12 yards. Do you know why? BECAUSE THEY ARE TIGHT ENDS.

That's their role. It's the WRs that typically average 15-18 ypc. Geeze.

But the bottom line for me is that a TE who averages 40 catches per season for 6 seasons and is an excellent blocker IS very much a complete TE.

A guy like Graham who averages 24 catches per season over 6 seasons and is an excellent blocker IS NOT a complete TE.

Now it's clear that you put a lot of stock in Graham's 11.4 yards per catch compared to Brady's 10.3 yards per catch average for their career, but again, for a TE, 1.1 ypc difference isn't going to tip the scales for me for or against any TE or WR for that matter.

It's semantics I guess but the distinction here is that you seem to value 1 additional yard per catch on average more than I value 1 additional CATCH PER GAME. It might not sound like much but having some consistently decent games as a receiver causes DC's to scheme quite a bit differently than for a guy who consistently has mediocre games as a receiver - and that can have a major impact for the rest of the team in terms of the defensive scheme too.

So on that I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[scout]

He was the best tight end on the Patriots. If he was somehow signed today, he'd still be the best tight end on the Patriots. The rest of this is just nonsense and justification. He's in Denver now. People need to just let it die.

I liked the guy, but given a choice between Graham and Watson, I'm taking Watson.

 

[Deus Irae]

Wow - you're really stretching here.

In his prime for 6 seasons in Jacksonville Kyle Brady was a better blocker than he is now - and pretty much everyone agrees he's nearly as good as Dan Graham even though he's in his 13th season.

During that 6 season period he averaged about 40 catches per season.

That's quite a stretch to disregard those stats and instead grasp to suggest that becaue Brady "only" surpassed Graham's ONE year as a respectable receiver twice he's not as good as Graham.

What "stretch"? You made a poor argument and I refuted it. 13 seasons to 5, and only twice did Brady have more catches than Graham's high. In fact, this season, Brady doesn't even have double digits in receptions, he only caught 5 passes all last season, and he's caught fewer than 20 passes in 5 of his 13 seasons (in 3 of those 5 seasons, he played in all 16 games, while Graham's never caught fewer than 20 passes in a full season).

Like many TEs Graham and Brady both average between 10-12 yards. Do you know why? BECAUSE THEY ARE TIGHT ENDS.

That's their role. It's the WRs that typically average 15-18 ypc. Geeze.

Go back and actually look at old games. Brady was used in a different way than Graham. It makes a difference.

But the bottom line for me is that a TE who averages 40 catches per season for 6 seasons and is an excellent blocker IS very much a complete TE.

A guy like Graham who averages 24 catches per season over 6 seasons and is an excellent blocker IS NOT a complete TE.

Let's see.... you minimize Graham and his 38 catch season, but you're pimping Brady and his 30,32,36 and 29 catch seasons by 'blending' them in with a 43 and 64 catch season. Again, you mustn't have watched Brady play, because he was being used differently than Graham has been.

Now it's clear that you put a lot of stock in Graham's 11.4 yards per catch compared to Brady's 10.3 yards per catch average for their career, but again, for a TE, 1.1 ypc difference isn't going to tip the scales for me for or against any TE or WR for that matter.

It's semantics I guess but the distinction here is that you seem to value 1 additional yard per catch on average more than I value 1 additional CATCH PER GAME. It might not sound like much but having some consistently decent games as a receiver causes DC's to scheme quite a bit differently than for a guy who consistently has mediocre games as a receiver - and that can have a major impact for the rest of the team in terms of the defensive scheme too.

So on that I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

What you keep overlooking is the difference in the manner of usage. Brady was an outlet receiver on that Jaguars team, while Graham was a 6th offensive lineman for the Patriots who was thrown a passing bone every once in a while. This, in fact, is the role that Brady has had here in New England this season, because it's one of the ways New England utilize their tight ends. The result of this manner of TE usage has been 9 catches in 14 games.

Graham is a better receiver than Brady. He's a better runner than Brady. He's a better blocker than Brady. And, he's enough of a leader that he was made a captain of the Patriots last season. Other than that list, Brady is right there with Graham, I'm sure....


Oh, and for the record:

Kyle Brady catches per game: 1.7
Daniel Graham catches per game: 1.8

 

[JoeSixPat]

What "stretch"? You made a poor argument and I refuted it. 13 seasons to 5, and only twice did Brady have more catches than Graham's high. In fact, this season, Brady doesn't even have double digits in receptions, he only caught 5 passes all last season, and he's caught fewer than 20 passes in 5 of his 13 seasons (in 3 of those 5 seasons, he played in all 16 games, while Graham's never caught fewer than 20 passes in a full season).


Go back and actually look at old games. Brady was used in a different way than Graham. It makes a difference.




Let's see.... you minimize Graham and his 38 catch season, but you're pimping Brady and his 30,32,36 and 29 catch seasons by 'blending' them in with a 43 and 64 catch season. Again, you mustn't have watched Brady play, because he was being used differently than Graham has been.



What you keep overlooking is the difference in the manner of usage. Brady was an outlet receiver on that Jaguars team, while Graham was a 6th offensive lineman for the Patriots who was thrown a passing bone every once in a while. This, in fact, is the role that Brady has had here in New England this season, because it's one of the ways New England utilize their tight ends. The result of this manner of TE usage has been 9 catches in 14 games.

Graham is a better receiver than Brady. He's a better runner than Brady. He's a better blocker than Brady. And, he's enough of a leader that he was made a captain of the Patriots last season. Other than that list, Brady is right there with Graham, I'm sure....


Oh, and for the record:

Kyle Brady catches per game: 1.7
Daniel Graham catches per game: 1.8

Daniel Graham's been saying the same thing as you for years.

And he's still a mediocre pass catching TE.

 

[Deus Irae]

Daniel Graham's been saying the same thing as you for years.

And he's still a mediocre pass catching TE.

Or, in other words, you made a post trying to pat yourself on the back, and your argument was shown to be nonsense in the context of attacking my response. Now, rather than admit that, you just fall back on stupid comments like the above. This was my favorite thing you posted:

It's semantics I guess but the distinction here is that you seem to value 1 additional yard per catch on average more than I value 1 additional CATCH PER GAME.

That was rich considering Graham has a slightly higher catch per game average than Brady over the course of their careers. The next time you're going to call someone delusional, you should probably know what the hell you're talking about first.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Or, in other words, you made a post trying to pat yourself on the back, and your argument was shown to be nonsense in the context of attacking my response. Now, rather than admit that, you just fall back on stupid comments like the above. This was my favorite thing you posted:

That was rich considering Graham has a slightly higher catch per game average than Brady over the course of their careers. The next time you're going to call someone delusional, you should probably know what the hell you're talking about first.

Daniel Graham's been saying the same thing as you for years.

And he's still a mediocre pass catching TE.



And of course I noticed that you've taken Brady's ENTIRE career to bring down his catches per game - whereas I'm acknowledging that Brady is NOT currently in his prime as a pass catcher in Year 13 (duh!)

Other than that list, Brady is right there with Graham, I'm sure....


Oh, and for the record:

Kyle Brady catches per game: 1.7
Daniel Graham catches per game: 1.8

When you focus on Brady's prime, Mr. Smart guy - from 98 to 03 - he's averaging 2.5 catches per game, which as I said is much better than Graham. My hope for Graham was, like Brady, he might find his groove after leaving his first team - but as the thread indicates, it was a typical season for him.

I'm not sure if you're purposefully ignoring those stats or not but overall this is where stats can really catch people.

Brady has a 60 plus pass catching year and consistently delivered 30 + catches in his prime while still serving as a devastating blocker averaging nearly 40 catches a year making him a player that defenses needed to keep an eye on.

As you point out Graham has had one and only one season even approaching that production.

So we can both use stats to prove our points - but what this reminds me of most the debate I had with so many last year who could PROVE beyond a reasonable doubt with statistics that Reche Caldwell and our WRs last season were as good as any we've ever had and that we were ALL SET at WR.

They used stats to disprove what anyone's eyeballs could tell them - that our WRs were mediocre at best even if the stats said otherwise. Thank goodness Belichick understands the limitations of statistics even if some fans do not.

 

[Deus Irae]

Daniel Graham's been saying the same thing as you for years.

And he's still a mediocre pass catching TE.



This is where stats can really catch people.


Brady has a 60 plus pass catching year and consistently delivered 30 + catches in his prime while still serving as a devastating blocker averaging nearly 40 catches a year making him a player that defenses needed to keep an eye on.

As you point out Graham has had one and only one season even approaching that production.

So we can both use stats to prove our points - but what this reminds me of most the debate I had with so many last year who could PROVE beyond a reasonable doubt with statistics that Reche Caldwell and our WRs last season were as good as any we've ever had and that we were ALL SET at WR.

They used stats to disprove what anyone's eyeballs could tell them - that our WRs were mediocre at best even if the stats said otherwise. Thank goodness Belichick understands the limitations of statistics even if some fans do not.

No, the stats didn't prove your point. Just as getting better receivers doesn't prove that the team wasn't "all set" at WR. The reality is that Brady is being used in the same manner that Graham was used, and he's been less effective in the passing game than Graham was. So, because this kills your argument, you attempted to reach back to Brady's Tampa years, apparently not knowing that he was being used in a completely different manner in Tampa than Graham has been used in Denver and New England.

You were wrong in your post and you were wrong when you tried pulling that "1 more catch per game" out of your ass. Also, Brady didn't even reach the 30 catch plateau until his 4th year in the league. Graham did it in both his second and third seasons. Stop trying to put down a player for no good reason, and move on: the guy isn't even on the team anymore. Seriously, don't you see the irony of your saying "This is where stats can really catch people." when you A.) cherrypicked stats to get Brady's "Prime", and B.) were wrong on your catches per game argument?

I'm not making the claim that Graham is the greatest TE ever to suit up. I'm simply saying that he's better than the current tight ends on the Patriots. That you claim such an opinion makes me delusional says a lot more about your inability to analyze football than it does about anything else.

 

[JoeSixPat]

You were wrong in your post and you were wrong when you tried pulling that "1 more catch per game" out of your ass.

No - as I pointed out, you went out of your way to use Brady's entire career when I'm simply speaking about the 6 years when he was in his prime.

I'm not trying to compare Brady's entire career to Graham in his prime. Apparently YOU are - which is how you rate them as equal.

No one's saying Brady's an excellent pass catcher any more either - but yet you need to use those years to water down the stats to prove your point.

Do the math on Brady from 98 -03 and compare that to Graham - and get back to me to show me how Graham is better. Maybe then you'll stop trying to insult people for what you perceive as an inability to analyze stats.

People were making excuses for Graham - including Graham - year after year after year after year after year... and he's never developed into a complete TE.

Shanahan bought into your argument too and gave him $6 mil a season - and now he's regretting it. Bottom line - just like with our WR corps last year, don't put too much stock in stats. Believe your eyeballs - Graham is a mediocre pass catching TE.

 

[kappy]

No, the stats didn't prove your point. Just as getting better receivers doesn't prove that the team wasn't "all set" at WR. The reality is that Brady is being used in the same manner that Graham was used, and he's been less effective in the passing game than Graham was. So, because this kills your argument, you attempted to reach back to Brady's Tampa years, apparently not knowing that he was being used in a completely different manner in Tampa than Graham has been used in Denver and New England.

You were wrong in your post and you were wrong when you tried pulling that "1 more catch per game" out of your ass. Also, Brady didn't even reach the 30 catch plateau until his 4th year in the league. Graham did it in both his second and third seasons. Stop trying to put down a player for no good reason, and move on: the guy isn't even on the team anymore. Seriously, don't you see the irony of your saying "This is where stats can really catch people." when you A.) cherrypicked stats to get Brady's "Prime", and B.) were wrong on your catches per game argument?

I'm not making the claim that Graham is the greatest TE ever to suit up. I'm simply saying that he's better than the current tight ends on the Patriots. That you claim such an opinion makes me delusional says a lot more about your inability to analyze football than it does about anything else.

Kyle Brady never played in Tampa.... he played in Jacksonville for the Jaguars. Also, he is not being used the same as D.Graham was...

I was a big fan of D.Grahams when he was with the Pats, and I think the world of him as a blocker. I remember games when he would shut down DE's like J.Taylor an D.Freeney almost by himself. He was a great wham/trap blocker coming across the formation in motion, too. However, he did drop too many passes that hit him in the hands.

Kyle Brady is a different type of blocker - he is 6'5", 280 lbs - almost as big as our starting LT. K.Brady is much more powerful, better at sustaining blocks, and better sealing off the corner on running plays. While his feet aren't as quick as Grahms in pass-protection, his reach and size make up for it. Even though K.Brady is not the threat in the seam that D.Graham could be, he has better hands and runs good routes.

As blocking TE's go, I will take K.Brady over D.Graham. Neither is worth $6M/season (which is why the Pats took K.Brady @ $2.5M/year over D.Graham).

Just my opinion...

 

[Deus Irae]

No - as I pointed out, you went out of your way to use Brady's entire career when I'm simply speaking about the 6 years when he was in his prime.

I'm not trying to compare Brady's entire career to Graham in his prime. Apparently YOU are - which is how you rate them as equal.

It gets easier for you to post if you shade the numbers, doesn't it? You are the one who cherry picked Brady's prime. You are the one who took a grand total of two seasons over 40 catches (one was a whopping 43 catches) and pimped "40 catches per season for 6 seasons", not me. In 13 seasons as a pro, Brady had more than 40 catches only twice, and one was 43 catches. You conveniently folded in one season with 64 catches to pump up the rest of his "prime" instead of individualizing the numbers. So, since you're cherrypicking the data, let's do that "prime" without the magical 64 number:

Suddenly, Brady's "prime" is an average of 34 catches, a far cry from 40 and an unimpressive number given his role in that Tampa offense. And, as I tried to point out to you, his role in Tampa was a different role than it has been here in NewEngland. That's why it's the only place he ever caught more than 30 passes a year at an he's only got 9 catches this season.

No one's saying Brady's an excellent pass catcher any more either - but yet you need to use those years to water down the stats to prove your point.

Do the math on Brady from 98 -03 and compare that to Graham - and get back to me to show me how Graham is better. Maybe then you'll stop trying to insult people for what you perceive as an inability to analyze stats.

Here we go again....

I live in Florida, and I saw Brady playing in Tampa. I've always felt that he was unfairly called a bust in New York and I think he's been fine in New England, so I have no desire to denigrate the man. However, you keep babbling on about things you don't seem understand when you point only to his "prime" years for his receiving. He caught more passes in Tampa because of the offense he was in. That doesn't mean he suddenly became a better pass receiver. That team had Brunell throwing to Smith and McCardell, with Brady and Taylor serving as the underneath and outlet receivers. What you keep conveniently overlooking is that Graham was actually only in that role for his second and third year in New England, when he put up 30+ in both seasons. His rookie year had Fauria and Faulk in that role, and Watson took over that Fauria role in Graham's fourth year.

People were making excuses for Graham - including Graham - year after year after year after year after year... and he's never developed into a complete TE.

Shanahan bought into your argument too and gave him $6 mil a season - and now he's regretting it. Bottom line - just like with our WR corps last year, don't put too much stock in stats. Believe your eyeballs - Graham is a mediocre pass catching TE.

And yet he is still better than Brady ever was and would still be the best tight end on the Patriots if he were signed today. All your misuse of stats and incorrect claims about stats (1 catch more per game when it's actually 0.1 catch fewer per game) won't change that.

I don't have a problem with Belioli deciding that Graham wasn't worth the money, although I think it would have been fun to watch this team going with a two tight end pairing of Graham and Brady, lining them up on one side, putting one in motion, and running behind Mankins, Light and those two monsters. I do have a problem with people calling me delusional when the don't seem to know what they are talking about. You talk about getting caught by the stats, and that's precisely what you did.

 

[kappy]

It gets easier for you to post if you shade the numbers, doesn't it? You are the one who cherry picked Brady's prime. You are the one who took a grand total of two seasons over 40 catches (one was a whopping 43 catches) and pimped "40 catches per season for 6 seasons", not me. In 13 seasons as a pro, Brady had more than 40 catches only twice, and one was 43 catches. You conveniently folded in one season with 64 catches to pump up the rest of his "prime" instead of individualizing the numbers. So, since you're cherrypicking the data, let's do that "prime" without the magical 64 number:

Suddenly, Brady's "prime" is an average of 34 catches, a far cry from 40 and an unimpressive number given his role in that Tampa offense. And, as I tried to point out to you, his role in Tampa was a different role than it has been here in NewEngland. That's why it's the only place he ever caught more than 30 passes a year at an he's only got 9 catches this season.




Here we go again....

I live in Florida, and I saw Brady playing in Tampa. I've always felt that he was unfairly called a bust in New York and I think he's been fine in New England, so I have no desire to denigrate the man. However, you keep babbling on about things you don't seem understand when you point only to his "prime" years for his receiving. He caught more passes in Tampa because of the offense he was in. That doesn't mean he suddenly became a better pass receiver. That team had Brunell throwing to Smith and McCardell, with Brady and Taylor serving as the underneath and outlet receivers. What you keep conveniently overlooking is that Graham was actually only in that role for his second and third year in New England, when he put up 30+ in both seasons. His rookie year had Fauria and Faulk in that role, and Watson took over that Fauria role in Graham's fourth year.



And yet he is still better than Brady ever was and would still be the best tight end on the Patriots if he were signed today. All your misuse of stats and incorrect claims about stats (1 catch more per game when it's actually 0.1 catch fewer per game) won't change that.

I don't have a problem with Belioli deciding that Graham wasn't worth the money, although I think it would have been fun to watch this team going with a two tight end pairing of Graham and Brady, lining them up on one side, putting one in motion, and running behind Mankins, Light and those two monsters. I do have a problem with people calling me delusional when the don't seem to know what they are talking about. You talk about getting caught by the stats, and that's precisely what you did.

I don't care where you live... you never saw Kyle Brady play in Tampa. He played for Jacksonville. Mark Brunell, Keenan McCardell and Jimmy Smith played for the Jaguars (McCardell went on to play with the Buccaneers later). Brady came to the Pats after playing for the Jags. Look it up.

BTW: who cares about stats or how they are used? Go by what you see - I don't know if you are a Bronco's fan trying to justify a big $ signing by your team, , but after watching every game of D.Graham's for his Pats career, I can tell you that I would rather have K.Brady - he is a more consistent player and a better in-line blocker.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Kyle Brady never played in Tampa.... he played in Jacksonville for the Jaguars.

Nice - I missed that first time around.

So, because this kills your argument, you attempted to reach back to Brady's Tampa years, apparently not knowing that he was being used in a completely different manner in Tampa than Graham has been used in Denver and New England.

That you claim such an opinion makes me delusional says a lot more about your inability to analyze football than it does about anything else.

Next up... Deus gets into a back and forth with himself over his inability to analyze statistics and know what team Brady played for!

And none of that will change the fact that Graham - much to the chagrin of Shanahan's $30 million contract and HUGE incentive to give Graham every opportuntity to prove otherwise - is still a mediocre pass catcher.

Hey I hope the guy does turn it around and have some very good years like Brady did after leaving NY. But thus far its the same old same old for him.

 

[kappy]

Tell you what - after watching B.Watson drop two passes that hit him in the hands tonight, you can have him too....

I'll bet you $6M/year will get that done...

 

[Deus Irae]

I don't care where you live... you never saw Kyle Brady play in Tampa. He played for Jacksonville. Mark Brunell, Keenan McCardell and Jimmy Smith played for the Jaguars (McCardell went on to play with the Buccaneers later). Brady came to the Pats after playing for the Jags. Look it up.

BTW: who cares about stats or how they are used? Go by what you see - I don't know if you are a Bronco's fan trying to justify a big $ signing by your team, , but after watching every game of D.Graham's for his Pats career, I can tell you that I would rather have K.Brady - he is a more consistent player and a better in-line blocker.

You're right, it's Jacksonville. You'll notice that I had the right receivers, quarterback and running back. I just typed the wrong team. And Brady isn't close. Have a nice night.

 

[kappy]

You're right, it's Jacksonville. You'll notice that I had the right receivers, quarterback and running back. I just typed the wrong team. And Brady isn't close. Have a nice night.

The only thing I noticed is that you don't know your ***** from your elbow.

Enjoy the Daniel Graham era in Denver... I am going to go enjoy my evening.