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One scout says...the Pats are slowest in the NFL!

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by yopats, Mar 13, 2010.

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  1. yopats

    yopats Rookie

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    This is from Daniel Jeremiah former Browns and Ravens scout. aka Move the Sticks

    I found this quite interesting.. should be an interesting convo..

    Via Twitter
    "Here's a topic for the twitter tribe: What NFL team would you say is the fastest and what team is the slowest??"

    RT @Fresh_Logic: r u talking about how they play or just overall speed at various skill positions?>> both...

    For the fastest NFL team, some that come to mind are PHI, N.O., IND, OAK... Some of the slowest: SEA, NE, KC, CLE

    Interesting topic b/c I have talked to a couple different NFL execs that think N.E. is one of the slowest teams out there
  2. Mogamedogz

    Mogamedogz Rookie

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    Re: One Scout says.. the Pats are Slowest in the NFL!

    Cant say i disagree. Outside of Moss who has slowed some... Who else is there?
  3. unoriginal

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    Re: One Scout says.. the Pats are Slowest in the NFL!

    It's the premium for the 3-cone over the 40 yard dash. Other teams undervalue agility and quickness.
  4. patriotscpfc

    patriotscpfc Rookie

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    Re: One Scout says.. the Pats are Slowest in the NFL!

    Tate, Butler, Guyton are 3 examples of our quick players.

    AD is pretty quick if he wants it enough (example: SD INT TD in 07)

    I'd say most of our Secondary is quick.

    Wes is quick, but not fast. Edelman is fast.

    Our Linemen are fast for their size with them needing to be there for the Screen Game. I'd guess that Mankins can't be far off one of the fastest Guards in the League.
  5. FoxboroFlyer

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    Re: One Scout says.. the Pats are Slowest in the NFL!

    Agreed. This is no shocker at all.
  6. FredFromDartmouth

    FredFromDartmouth Rookie

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    Re: One Scout says.. the Pats are Slowest in the NFL!

    If Minnesota gets LT, then they would have to be the quickest; they already have Percy Harvin, the quickest WR I have seen in years.

    The Patriots are the slowest now when you consider that Moss has three ice pack (both knees and back)....and the rest of the fast WRs are injured or about to be (Edelman).
  7. FoxboroFlyer

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    Re: One Scout says.. the Pats are Slowest in the NFL!

    Especially at the RB and WR positions. The 3 cone is so much more important because it shows the ability of these players in terms of change of direction which is vastly undervalued as opposed to flat speed. How often in the NFL is a player going to be running a straight line?
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2010
  8. livinginthe past

    livinginthe past Rookie

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    #12 Jersey

    Re: One Scout says.. the Pats are Slowest in the NFL!

    I'm willing to bet that this 'scouts' perception is strongly colored by how the front 7 operates.

    Look at the 'fast teams' - 4-3 defenses - naturally this includes two pass rushing DE's and probably a pass rushing DT.

    The LBers are going to be smaller, but more agile - they aren't going to be asked to shed blocks but they are going to read and react to plays and 'gang tackle' - think Colts.

    Look at Gary Brackett - that guy seem to spend more time running away from the LOS swatting at passes than moving forward and making hits.

    Philly blitzes alot - that will help a team look 'fast'.

    Its interesting that New England get thrown in with 'slow' teams that also happen to be horrible.

    I mean really, are we supposed to think that Seattle, Cleveland and KC make for a genuine comparison?

    How fast are the Steelers?

    Outside of Polamalu - not very.

    How fast are the Ravens?

    Outside of Ed Reed and Suggs...not very.

    The perception of 3-4 defenses is going to be governed by the fact that they have 3 guys up front whose primary objective is to occupy blockers and eat space.
  9. BSR

    BSR Rookie

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    I can't remember any Patriots teams in the last decades that were really built on speed. Some teams were faster then others, but they were never about speed, defense in particular.
  10. yopats

    yopats Rookie

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    Re: One Scout says.. the Pats are Slowest in the NFL!

    I don't the comment from Jeremiah was limited to straight line speed but overall speed taking in consideration of the skill players as well.

    I do think they have been addressing this issue on the Def. side of things the last couple of years and I expect that to cont.
  11. FoxboroFlyer

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    Re: One Scout says.. the Pats are Slowest in the NFL!

    I don't know. I think the Steelers backers are pretty fast.
  12. FoxboroFlyer

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    Re: One Scout says.. the Pats are Slowest in the NFL!

    True. I'm just saying we need to stop over valuing draft prospects based solely on 40 times.
  13. patsinthesnow

    patsinthesnow PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey

    If I had a choice between the speedy colts who have the size of highschool players, or the pats who aren't fast but are big and can hurt,I'd choose the Pats.

    The Colts D is vastly overrated. If you execute ,you can run all over them of gash them through the air (1st half Colts game). Peyton helps that Defense by screwing with coaches minds coaching offense the offense.

    3-4 owns tampa 2 midgets
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2010
  14. livinginthe past

    livinginthe past Rookie

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    #12 Jersey

    Re: One Scout says.. the Pats are Slowest in the NFL!

    Is Harrison faster than Adalius Thomas - i'm not critiquing perfomance here because thats an obvious no contest.

    Is LaMarr Woodley faster than TBC?

    What about the ILB pairing of Timmons/Farrior vs Mayo/Guyton?

    I would say the first two are a wash in terms of speed - and that Mayo and Guyton are comfortably quicker as a team.

    How do you see it?
  15. FoxboroFlyer

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    Re: One Scout says.. the Pats are Slowest in the NFL!

    In terms of PLAYING speed I feel the Steelers backers are flat out faster. Their linebackers have made countless game changing plays with their speed...how many have ours made? I keep having flash backs of that Harrison int. before halftime against the Cardinals that he returned for a 101 yd. TD. I don't see anyone on this team at LB doing that.
  16. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I am willing to bet the 2001, 2003, and 2004 Patriots were among the slowest teams in the NFL too if not the slowest. In fact, I think the Pats' secondary in 2001 was much slower than the 2009 Patriots secondary. During the Super Bowl years, the Pats main edge rushers were McGinest and Vrabel and they were probably the slowest DE/OLBs in the league those years. Other than Bethel Johnson, what WR did the Pats have during the Super Bowl years that were particular fast?

    The Pats use a read and react style of defense, that means that speed is not nearly as important as say a Tampa 2 defense where speed is everything. The Pats could stand to upgrade some speed at places, but the offense has always depended on quick, not fast WRs (except Moss) and a read and react defense.

    The problems with this team have little to do with speed although it wouldn't hurt to upgrade it.
  17. livinginthe past

    livinginthe past Rookie

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    #12 Jersey

    Re: One Scout says.. the Pats are Slowest in the NFL!

    Come on.

    The guy was having a heart attack after that run-back.

    When people start talking about 'playing speed' you are entering murky waters.

    Harrison is a great player - him and LaMarr Woodley are way better than anything we have on our roster at that position

    They both use a rare combination of speed and strength to beat their guys - they both 'play fast' because they are better at diagnosing plays and then reacting to them.

    Simply put, they are just 'better'.
  18. blackcat54

    blackcat54 Rookie

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    Re: One Scout says.. the Pats are Slowest in the NFL!


    Look at Edelman's cone drill times and tell me he is not seriously quick. Once he stops thinking so much he will look much quicker on the field.
    Julian Edelman*|*Kent State,*WR*:*2009 NFL Draft Scout Player Profile
  19. spacecrime

    spacecrime Rookie

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    We need to define terms to have any chance of communicating in this thread.

    People have been using 'quick' and 'fast' interchangeably. In evaluating football players, particularly receivers and EBs, I don't think they mean the same thing, and are measured differently at the Combine.

    Also, it is not necessarily true that fast is the ideal. While it is generally better to be fast than slow, in some positions size and weight are more important. Dan Klecko and Jarvis Green were probably faster than Wilfork, Washington and Traylor, but they didn't excel in the NT position.

    Acknkowledging that everyone wants to get younger and faster on defense, the unspoken assumption is to get younger and faster players who are better than your older and slower players. Monty Beisel was young and fast compared to Tedy, for instance, and a few years ago Bethel Johnson was MUCH younger and MUCH faster than Troy Brown, but who wanted to make those switches at the time?
  20. spacecrime

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    Re: One Scout says.. the Pats are Slowest in the NFL!

    Are you saying that Harrsion is faster than Mayo and Guyton?
  21. FoxboroFlyer

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    Re: One Scout says.. the Pats are Slowest in the NFL!

    Exactly, diagnosing plays and having the strength to shed blockers are both key factors in playing speed, imo.
  22. livinginthe past

    livinginthe past Rookie

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    #12 Jersey

    Times have moved on since the SB years though, right?

    The increased emphasis on stopping WR interference - the protection of the QB from any contact whatsoever - mean that the Patriots early decade style of play has been largely made archaic.

    I personally think the Colts are the model of a modern defense (yes, I feel as much pain typing that as you do reading it) - its designed to primarily stop the pass because that how most successful teams move the ball these days.

    The front 4 must contain at least one elite pass rusher, preferably two, and be capable of making enough big negative plays to kill a drive ie sack.

    The back 7 are strictly damage limitation - they will be more adept at pass defense than shutting the running game down.

    Of course, it helps if this defense is paired with a top level offense that retgularly puts the opposition in a pass first mentality.

    The Patriots have had that offense - and can have that offense again.

    What they need to do is find a defense that compliments it - rather than one that is relevant to SB success in 2004.
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2010
  23. FoxboroFlyer

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    Re: One Scout says.. the Pats are Slowest in the NFL!

    I'm saying the pressure they get with their D-line makes Harrison play faster than Mayo and Guyton.
  24. Rob0729

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    Re: One Scout says.. the Pats are Slowest in the NFL!

    Their playing speed is not any faster. Pittsburgh runs a different style of defense than the Patriots. The Steelers blitz a lot more and try to pressure the QB in different ways. It has nothing to do with playing speed. You can say the Steelers have better LBs which I wouldn't argue. But it isn't because their LBs play faster or are faster.
  25. zoostation

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    I agree speed was not a priority in those years. This is why they liked it when the field got muddy and "slow" in late Nov and December. It Neutralized the other teams speed and allowed the Pats play the 'read and react' style you mention above.

    Once the D got a bit faster in 06 with Banta-Cain, Samuel, Hobbs, Colvin etc. The team installed the field turf and in my opinion this changed the style of play and took away some of their advantage.
  26. livinginthe past

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    #12 Jersey

    Re: One Scout says.. the Pats are Slowest in the NFL!

    The Steelers employ a zone blitz scheme - drawn up by one of the best DC's ever.

    The play you are talking about was a mis-read by Warner - he didn't expect Harrison to drop back into coverage and threw the ball into an area where he though Harrison would have vacated.

    It should also be noted that the Steelers D has been looking both 'slow' and 'old' in the 4th quarter of games all last year.

    One of the NFL's most genuinely under-rated players - Aaron Smith - left a pretty huge hole in the depth chart at DE this last year.
  27. patsinthesnow

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    #87 Jersey

    You can't be serious. Calling that defense the face of the NFL is a disgrace to the league. They get beat up. They don't exactly stop the pass either,ask Brees and Brady.

    The pats type of defense isn't obsolete. They just aren't as good as the superbowl years. The 2008 Steelers D worked,and that is just like the pats.
  28. patriotscpfc

    patriotscpfc Rookie

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    Tell you what,

    You want speed, watch the Tennessee game in the snow.

    Show me any other team that moves like that in a blizzard and they can have the right to be quicker than us.
  29. livinginthe past

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    #12 Jersey

    Ok, so Brees and Brady put points up on them.

    Brees and Brady put points up on everyone!

    If I remember correctly Brees put up 370 yards and 5 TD's on the Patriots D and thats alot different to 270 yards and 2 TD's that the Colts gave up in the Superbowl.

    You telling me a hobbled Dwight Freeney didn't have a huge impact on the way that game played out?

    I don't like the way the league has been manipulated in this 'finesse' direction anymore than it appears you do - but facts are facts.

    Sure, Brady lit up the Colts in that first half - they were frickin' awesome - not many defenses could have lived with that - it was 2007 all over again.

    Then again, I know the Colts lit us up worse in the second half because we lost.
  30. Rob0729

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    Well, the Colts are moving away from their model and begun this past season. The Tampa 2 is all but dead and the Tampa 2 is what relied on speed. Jim Caldwell is trying to move away from the Tampa 2 with a more of a read and react type of defense. They were still suspectable to the passing game this year (the Pats tore them up for 3 1/2 quarters and Brees torched them in the Super Bowl).

    You look at their schedule and they benefitted more from not facing a lot of top QBs more than the style of defense they ran. The teams they played during the season were in the AFC South (only Schaub is remotely a good passing QB in that division other than Manning), AFC East (Brady and then not much), NFC West (Kurt Warner and no one), Baltimore (Flacco had an off year), and Denver (Orton was decent, but had already started to fall off a bit when the Colts played them late in the season).

    There is a reason why so many teams are copying the Pats and other 3-4 staples like Pittsburgh and running the 3-4. Two more teams are adapting it this season (Washington and Buffalo). If the Pats' style of defense was outdated and the Tampa 2 style was the right way to play, the 3-4 wouldn't be becoming the most dominant base defense in the NFL and one team only runs the Tampa 2 (the Bears).
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