One person's list of NE's all-time top five WRs

[BSR]

But that last point is exactly what Deus and I are saying: Welker has had just as much playoff success as Brown has. Brown's playoff value has included huge plays on special teams. This is not to diminish those contributions - they were enormous. But they weren't as a *wide receiver*. Welker's playoff production as a WR has been better than Brown's. Or at least it's been even. That the Pats' defense gave up two last-minute TDs to the Giants is not Welker's fault. All you can point to with respect to that is Welker's "drop", which was partly on him and partly on Brady.

Well than why not parse it further and say Stanley Morgan was the greatest WR and Welker was the greatest slot receiver? Its parsing the argument to the point of irrelevance. Both Brown and Welker contribute on return duties so it is a fair comparison.

As for the defense giving up the last two minute TDs, you can't rewrite the ending of those games just like you can't rewrite the way Brown was used early in his career. To this point, their numbers and moments of greatness can only be judged on what actually happened not imagined scenarios that might have happened.

I've always conceded that Welker has the better numbers. There is no argument there and those that want to judge it that way...well...that is their choice. I am choosing to rate them a subjective measure based on their contributions to winning superbowls. Call it a greatness quotient. Brown made great plays that won superbowls. Welker didn't. I'm not saying its fair, but I don't think I am alone in this way of thinking either. Welker is still a great player and one of my favorites on the team. I hope he retires a Patriot. I can't say it enough. However, I still appreciate Brown and his contributions to this team more.

 

[BSR]

It wasn't a blizzard. It was snowing. There's a huge difference. And Brady threw for 312 yards in that game - it wasn't a game whereby Brady and the passing offense couldn't work. I mean, David Patten, a less talented receiver than Brown, had 8 receptions for 107 yards, and Jermaine Wiggins, a slow-footed TE, had 10 receptions for 68 yards. If you throw in Brown's -9 yards rushing, and Troy accounted for 34 yards of offense that day, when the Patriots as a whole had 365 total yards.

Obviously the game conditions effected his play. I'm not exactly sure what your point of this is? I don't think I have ever made the claim that Brown was perfect or put up tremendous numbers.

 

[BSR]

Brown didn't get it done. He choked and the team had to overcome his lousy play. You're just making excuses. You minimize Welker's work in "big games" because the defense blows leads after he makes his plays, and you minimize Brown's lousy game.

Patten managed to pull in 8 receptions and Wiggins had 10. Again, you're just making excuses.

They don't even beat the Raiders that year, because of Troy Brown's lousy play, if Larry Izzo doesn't save Troy Brown's ass in a game where Brown played like a choking dog. Is that an accurate statement? After all, it's at least as true as the statement you're making.

Its a team game. If Brady never throws the ball to Welker than he never makes a single reception. If the line doesn't block then Brady never completes a single pass. Tryin to put a loss on Brown for something that actually didn't happen, like losing a fumble is in the realm of imaginary excusses. Its like trolls that say that Brady wouldn't have a superbowl without Vinatieri. Everybody has to do their part, although that doesn't mean in every play or even every game. I am pretty comfortable in my argument that Brown did his part to win superbowls and it was a major one, would you at least concede that?

 

[BSR]

We won't agree because I'm using facts and logic while you're using emotion and a selective memory. It's really just that simple difference.

I would call it an argument of quantitative versus qualitative, but conceptually I don't disagree.

 

[ivanvamp]

Well than why not parse it further and say Stanley Morgan was the greatest WR and Welker was the greatest slot receiver? Its parsing the argument to the point of irrelevance. Both Brown and Welker contribute on return duties so it is a fair comparison.

As for the defense giving up the last two minute TDs, you can't rewrite the ending of those games just like you can't rewrite the way Brown was used early in his career. To this point, their numbers and moments of greatness can only be judged on what actually happened not imagined scenarios that might have happened.

I've always conceded that Welker has the better numbers. There is no argument there and those that want to judge it that way...well...that is their choice. I am choosing to rate them a subjective measure based on their contributions to winning superbowls. Call it a greatness quotient. Brown made great plays that won superbowls. Welker didn't. I'm not saying its fair, but I don't think I am alone in this way of thinking either. Welker is still a great player and one of my favorites on the team. I hope he retires a Patriot. I can't say it enough. However, I still appreciate Brown and his contributions to this team more.

That last sentence is one that a lot of people sympathize with...myself included. I said in my first post in this thread that in terms of *overall contribution* to the Patriots, Troy Brown very well may have given more than Wes Welker. That's because Brown has made a ton of huge plays in big spots on special teams, and he even contributed significantly on *defense* - something we'll never see from Welker (we all hope!).

But this thread is about the players as WIDE RECEIVERS. That rules out the defense. It rules out the special teams. It rules out everything but what they do as WIDE RECEIVERS.

Again, let's go back and compare two games: 2001 Pats/Raiders snow bowl vs. 2011 Pats/Giants Super Bowl.

Troy Brown in that snow bowl game had 4 receptions for 43 yards, and 1 rush (from the WR position on a reverse) for -9 yards. He also had 5 returns for 49 yards. His total contribution to that game was 10 touches for 83 yards. He also had a crucial fumble on a punt return that would have cost the Patriots the game if Larry Izzo hadn't made a great recovery.

During that game, the Pats were aided by (a) the tuck rule play, (b) a tremendous defensive stand stopping the Raiders on 4th and 1 late, and (c) the greatest kick in NFL history by Vinatieri (the 45-yarder into the wind). Any of those three things don't happen and the Patriots lose the game and they never sniff their first SB title.

Contrast that with Welker's performance in last year's Super Bowl. Welker had 7 receptions for 60 yards, and 2 rushes for 21 yards. That's 9 touches for 81 total yards. Virtually identical production as what Brown gave them in total, though 49 of Brown's 83 yards were as a returner. Welker also had the "drop", which was half his fault, and half Brady's. But let's put it in Welker's column.

But the Patriots, instead of getting the breaks, got none that day. There were three fumbles that day. The Giants were fortunate in that they recovered two (balls bounced *right* to their guys), and the one that NE recovered was canceled out by a penalty on the Patriots. The Giants also had an amazing pass to Manningham on their GW drive.

So, to sum up:

Brown: 10 touches, 83 yards (5 touches, 34 yards as a WR), 1 huge mistake, but the Pats' D bails them out and the Pats get a couple of very fortunate breaks. Result: Patriots win 16-13 and go on to win the SB.

Welker: 9 touches, 81 yards, 1 huge mistake, but the Pats' D does not bail them out and the Pats get zero breaks. Result: Patriots lose 21-17.

So based on your reasoning, Brown is a superior player because Brown's "contributions" helped them win a Super Bowl while Welker's did not.

But when you see what actually happened in the games, doesn't it appear to be a losing argument?

I mean, we can all appreciate everything Brown gave the Patriots, and he's a deserving Pats HOFer, but he just has not been a better WR than Welker, and giving him credit for the SB wins may make him more loved and revered in Patriots Nation, but it doesn't make him a better WIDE RECEIVER for the Patriots. Not at all.

 

[ivanvamp]

Obviously the game conditions effected his play. I'm not exactly sure what your point of this is? I don't think I have ever made the claim that Brown was perfect or put up tremendous numbers.

So game conditions affected Brown's play but not Wiggins' or Patten's? What does that say about Brown then?

My point was that Deus noted that Brown had a bad game that day. You countered by saying it was a "blizzard" and thus it was a rationalization of why he had a bad game. I replied that it wasn't a blizzard (though conditions were far from ideal, obviously) and that other Patriots players had excellent games, and that the Pats' offense still moved the ball well through the air. So it wasn't like the conditions prevented NE from producing yards.