It seems strange that you can "never follow" the arguments that make matters clear intellectually, and take offense if others "speak from the heart" on a subject. In other words, there is always one or another excuse not to examine your
own beliefs, rather than trumpet how very much you believe them.
The reason why I have no desire to examine Hebrew scripture as if it were written as a "lead-up" to Christianity, is that I believe in Hebrew scripture, just as you believe in the Christian bible. While you do not like
how I believe in the Jewish scriptures, I do not read them as a lead-up to Christianity. So, this interpretation of Hebrew scripture is as invalid to me, as the Qur'an's interpretation of the Jesus narrative is to you.
Now I know this part is tough for you: I also believe that Orthodoxy is
not the only path within Judaism, as do the majority of Jews.
Let me talk regular some more to ya. It's grotesque for you to presume to tell me what an "authentic" Jew is, particularly since you were evidently unable to retain your own connection with Judaism, choosing instead the dominant culture's religion.
You are a Jewish apostate to Christianity. It is what it is. I have no problem even with you calling yourself Jewish, especially since the Jewish tradition supports the claim, that your Jewish birth entitles you to say as much ("once a Jew always a Jew.")
I
do, however, have a problem with an apostate convert to Christianity telling me how I'm not Jewish enough.
On many occasions, both Christians and Muslims have vowed to wipe out all Jews. Suffice it to say, Muslims go so far as to fantasize about acts that Christian Europe actually committed. Oh by the way, moderate Muslims say extremist Muslims "aren't real Muslims" too. So don't even try that one.
Again, I need to cut characters. Your understanding of the history is incomplete, or you are just insensitive to the import of that history. It's not so much an "argument," as an excuse I made for you to help explain your offensive behavior as naivete rather than malice.
Why the mocking quotes around "Reform," 3 to B? I propose speak for myself, and I am a Jew. I do, in fact, follow written scripture; however, how I follow it and how you follow it obviously differ, since you are a Christian, and I am a Jew. Within Judaism, I am not an orthodox Jew. But I will have a good laugh about this whole exchange recounting it with my orthodox brother in law.
If you doubt that my feeling toward proselytizing is representative of Jews, survey Orthodox, Reform, and Conservative shuls in your area, and conduct interviews as to whether they prefer to be proselytized to, or not to be proselytized to. I doubt you will find that the Christian Proselytizer is
really the voice of the Jewish community.
First of all, thank you for pointing out again how little respect you have for my faith. The unmitigated
chutzpah of a Christian attempting to dictate to a reform Jew, just how he should best be Jewish, is beneath contempt. It is grotesque, 3 to B.
Again, this is only your own bias, mixed with a good deal of libel. Suffice it to say, I respect my faith enough that I feel I earn the name Yisra'el, "Struggles with God," and have read the bible through a number of times. I also respect scripture enough that I have examined it from a number of angles: textual/literary, historical critical, allegorical, face-value, and yes, during a number of occasions, through the filter of other religions, Christianity and Islam, which approach the Torah as a subsidiary lead-in to their own claims.
So now my religion is
claimed while yours is
authentic? I always say, just give 'em enough rope.
As for the Qur'an, either your vaunted openmindedness has lapsed, or you are deliberately lying about what I said. Let's try it again:
What I said was that is as valid for you to examine the Qur'an's gloss on the Greek bible (as Christians call it, the "New Testament,") as it is for me to study a Christian gloss of the Hebrew bible. This is a different statement. Please refrain from bearing false witness against me.
I stand accused of asserting that the Qur'an makes more sense to Jews than Christianity. This is another libelous misstatement of what I said.
Historically, the best predictor of whether an apostate Jew converts to Christianity or Islam, is the dominant culture's faith. Hence, Jews who converted in Europe did not tend to convert to Islam (except in Turkey and Ottoman lands,) and those in the Middle East did not tend to convert to Christianity. What does that tell you?
You mean to say I've
expressed hatred? Or are you, in addition to being unerringly in the right about all matters of religion, also telepathic? You do not know my "inner" state of mind, only what you have seen here. I do not think I have expressed hatred of Christianity or Christians, nor do I have
"inner hatred" of Christians.
Nor do I have for them the theological contempt you display for all Jews, and in particular reform Jews, whom you seem to see as usurpers to Christianity (one of the more amusing examples of projection I've ever seen in such a debate).
No, 3toB. I am saying that just because you aren't forcing conversions, does not mean you are not disrespectful, only that you do not have violent means at your disposal.
Ive already asked about this buzzword you use constantly-proselytizing , as if it evil or something. Karl Rove has nothing on you.[/i]
Proselytizing is the active attempt at conversion of another, usually used (and certainly in this discussion,) to mean relgious proselytizing.
Maybe that's something you need to answer, rather than me.
I think you've shown how "respectful" you are of other faiths, particularly Judaism, and most particularly the majority of Jews who are not Orthodox.
You're engaging in bigotry, and it falls under the general header of theological antisemitism, in the form of needing a certain behavior of the Jewish people, which they are unwilling to provide, and impinging on them specifically despite their rebuffs of your attempts; scratch the surface, and you become more and more disrespectful of Judaism and Jews.
Your beliefs are your business, not mine, as long as you stay out of my hair. That is my point.
From your reaction here, though, I think you may believe your proselytizing to be justified by your freedoms of religion or speech; I merely made you aware that it is protected by those freedoms, but not in any way validated or justified. It is still possible for a behavior which is legal and condoned within one's own religion, to be offensive and insulting to those outside your religion. In the case of proselytizing, people outside your religion are exactly the people you are engaging in the behavior toward.
PFnV
Lets make it clear, If Im being disrespectful, what are you when you call me a Yahoo, an Anti-Semite, a bigot etc etc? puh-leeeze.
the comment about "claimed" religion was about Jews, dont bear false witness against, ME, please. Im saying, if someone claims to be of a faith and tells me they dont believe in anything written, it makes me wonder what it is they are practicing. You feel free to make the most heinous accusations toward me, so if you dish out......tell me more about how "Jewish" you are. You say you prefer the Hebrew scriptures. You also dont believe in the written. Which one is it? I have said over and over and over I welcome to be challenged on the Hebrew Sceipture, of which, oh by the way, the Old Testament is included. After some praying on it, it became clear why I wont get into a discussion on Islam. Its not that I dont believe in it, its that YOU dont believe in it. So it wouldnt be a truthful, honest, and of God dialogue. If you are using the Qu'ran to debunk the Bible, you are saying you believe the Qu'ran to be true. That would mean you are Muslim. But you are not Muslim. Jews and Christians believe in many of the same things. Christians will look to the Bible as argument because they believe it to be true, and if talking to someone else who believes in similar scripture, which I hate to tell you, much of Hebrew literature is, then that is a conversation of the heart and of faith, not being, excuse the pun "The Devils Advocate"
And I NEVER resisted a talk from your heart.
I welcome, but it makes it hard to have one when im being told how awful I am because im trying to engage a discussion about scripture both Christians and Jews read.
And again, you are doing the Karl Rove thing by continuing to use this buzzword proselytizing" as if in itself its evil or something. Forced conversion is extremly evil, sharing your Faith in order to attempt to induce others to believe the same is not an evil thing. If it is, then being a Democrat or a Republican is evil. Convining a Patriots fan Bledsoe is better than Brady is evil. trying to get someone to see your point of view on anything is evil.
Next i'll be called Willie Horton.
But im going to stop reacting to you for a while until the hostility lessens, there are others to communicate to and im afraid of get too distracted getting myself sucked into a place i dont want to go - An Anti-Semitism debate ive already answered.
But there is someone who has all the patience in the world. ************ Loves You and He always will.
