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Old Pant Suit Dumps On Israel

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Harry Boy, Feb 27, 2009.

  1. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    It is the "new cool thing" now among America's Far Left Wing to be "anti american anti israel" even many of the liberal "show biz scum" have turned on their once beloved Israel, how long will it be I wonder before the Pelosi Gang and all the Hollywood Wife Swappers are openly supporting Al Queda.

    The Good Thing About The Prince Obama Win:
    It was great watching the Black Community stab the Wretched Clintons in the back and then twisting the knife.
    Jewish Leaders Blast Clinton Over Israel Criticism - wcbstv.com
     
  2. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Oh, I don't think the Obama administration is anti-Israel, but I do think they're making it clear to Israel's right-wing government that they are not going to be puppets to Israel either. I think Hillary is sending a strong message, but let's keep in mind that many of the top people in Obama's administration are pro-Israel and Jewish. (Rahm Emmanuel is an Orthodox Jew, for instance.)
     
  3. Turk

    Turk Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    This is no more than the Israeli lobby letting the Administration know that it is ready to flex its muscle and out the window goes impartiality.

    Isn't it interesting that all 4 people quoted in the article are of Jewish faith and all feel the same way. Almost leading one to think that is just how everybody feels.
     
  4. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Well the article was about Jewish leaders, but there are certainly Christians (especially evangelicals) who are far more pro-Israel than most Americans Jews. Let's remember that 75% of Jews voted for Obama, and most knew that he would not be quite as blindly pro-Israel as was Bush. I think Obama is pushing back on Israel now that it has elected an extreme right-wing government, just the kind of government that Middle East extremists (of all stripes) can use to strengthen their hands.
     
  5. Turk

    Turk Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    These types of articles are written with the same end-result in mind and that is creating an atmosphere, a public opinion, where the administration's hands are tied. That's why they are so one-sided. Even the previous administration which was as pro-Israeli as it gets, got put in its place by the Israeli lobby when they tried to force the Israeli Govt to the table. Remember Rice's statements and then the retraction?
    It is exactly these types of articles that shape and form public opinion and they are not written so subjectively out of pure coincidence.
    "Israeli lobby pulls the strings and Obama gets in line", next up, stay tuned.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2009
  6. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Pro Bowl Player

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    #75 Jersey

    $$....ka-ching!....$$
     
  7. Michael

    Michael Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #12 Jersey

    "new" cool thing? Ever heard of Jimmy Carter? Or Reverend Jeremiah Wright?
     
  8. PatsFanInEaglesLand

    PatsFanInEaglesLand In the Starting Line-Up

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    #37 Jersey

    Your perceived notion about American Jews is way off base and offensive.

    Spielberg and Jon Stewart don't count as 75%. Exit polls lie, look at 2004, I live in the community and know that this is totally false. Maybe 50/50, maybe.

    There is a difference between being Jewish and being born to Jewish parents.

    So it is OK for Obama to push back when Israel elects a government you Jew haters don't like, but Bush was so evil for doing the same thing to Spain and Venezuela.
     
  9. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I think mostly the far left supports Hugo Chavez or opposes Israel, but there are certainly elements in the far right that oppose Israel as well. I do think that America should stand up to Israel because Israel for years has lost its way, and it's no closer to peace now than it was in 1993 when peace was made with Jordan.

    As far as exit polls, they may be off by a few points, but I doubt if they're off by more. That said, I don't appreciate your remark about a difference between being Jewish and being born to Jewish parents. I think that comment dishonors many of the Jews who were murdered by Hitler or killed in Middle Eastern conflicts.
     
  10. PatsFanInVa

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    PFIEL, I am a reform Jew. I was born to a Jewish mother, and insofar as it is pertinent, a Jewish father.

    Please consult any of the knowledgeable sources in "the community" as to whether or not I am a Jew. I think on this subject, your best bet is a rabbi.

    Unfortunately for your own viewpoint -- particularly if you are Orthodox -- you are simply wrong, as regards the Jewish viewpoint.

    I'm sure this is as unpopular among non-Jews as it is distasteful to your viewpoint, but it is simply the way Jews have looked at Judaism and Jewry for millennia.

    Jon Stewart: 100%. Steven Spielberg: 100%.

    Similarly, Andre Tippett? 100%. Maybe 110%, as he is a Jew by choice.

    As to the topic of the thread, I'm wary but not much more. I have trouble with rushing to release money to the "people" of Gaza, assuming they are represented in this outlay by Hamas. Now, if this is not the case (which I doubt,) I have absolutely no problem with rushing the aid to Gaza.

    Regardless: Should Gaza be rebuilt, and should Gazans have hope to look forward to? Absolutely. Should Hamas be in any way involved? Absolutely not. The one is a moral imperative, and the other is a moral obscenity. So yes, I'm interested in precisely what Mrs. Clinton suggests.

    PFnV
     
  11. PatsFanInEaglesLand

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    #37 Jersey

    My point was that practicing Jews are more conservative than non-practicing.
     
  12. PatsFanInVa

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    By and large, my observation matches yours, that Orthodox Jews tend to be more conservative (no pun intended) than Conservative and Reform Jews. That's a very different statement.

    Question: Do you think the correlation is as as strong as among Christians? Purely curiosity question, no hidden "gotcha" intended.

    PFnV
     
  13. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    PatsFan, what is a Reform Jew, I'm not trying to be a wise guy, I have never heard that term as often as the term "Orthodox Jew"---:confused:
     
  14. PatsFanInVa

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    Harry, the Reform movement started in Europe in the 1800s. The basic gist of Reform Judaism is that attendance to ritual practice, while not actually forbidden or discouraged, is considered ancillary to the history and heart of the religion. A Reform Jew is much less likely to keep kosher than an Orthodox Jew, for example.

    In Europe in the 19th century it included some pretty "out there" adherents, some of whom proclaimed that the Torah, the Talmud, and pretty much every other touchstone of Jewish study and observance "had to go." Ironically, some 19th century German adherents of Reform (Germany was the epicenter of the movement -- and of European biblical and religious scholarship -- in the 19th century) declared that the ancestral hope of Jews to return to Israel should be abandoned, and Germany be declared the new Zion. This was of course a vision of Zion as a homeland within another nation, not the takeover of Germany to convert it to a Jewish state (before Mav shows up and declares Hitler to only have been defending himself.) Ironic side-trip to the ironic side-trip: By the mid-20th century, Reform and Secular Jews were more likely than the Orthodox to support the creation of Israel at the outset.

    By the 20th century the excesses at the birth of the Reform movement had largely disappeared, and in the U.S., some Jews who did not want to be Orthodox, still were not happy with the Reform option, even though it was no longer as extreme in its rejection of ritualism. For these "middle of the road" types, a third movement, Conservative Judaism, started in the US.

    In Reform Judaism, you have a local temple, because Reform Jews so name any house of worship for Jews. Orthodox and Conservative Jews have synagogs (literally, a gathering place for study/teaching,) because only the Temple in Jerusalem can be considered a temple for Jews.

    In the 1800s you could probably have a ham sandwich at the oneg (nosh after services) at the temple. There were no conservative Jews. Orthodox Jews would never eat a ham sandwich.

    Today, nobody would have a ham sandwich near a schul of any kind. The Reform will go with a group of friends and get a bacon chedder steak bagel at McDonalds. Conservatives will make sure nobody from the schul is there, and get one later. The Orthodox won't get one.

    The Reform Jews will use a few prayers in Hebrew and have a hazy understanding of their meaning. The Conservative will dutifully include much more, without much more understanding. The Orthodox will do the lion's share of the service in Hebrew. PFIEL will have to tell us how fluent the Orthodox are in that language... I will wager their understanding is better.

    In Israel, what we call Orthodox and Reform are both relatively small minorities. The majority of Jews in Israel are what is called "secular" Jews. They don't understand the point of "reform" Judaism, and I don't quite understand what they mean by "secular." I think I would be better described as a secular than a reform Jew, myself, but I just use the "Reform" description by reflex.

    I think Reform and Orthodox in America correlate to Secular and Observant in Israel, basically. But an Israeli Secular Jew, while munching his bacon double cheddar steak bagel, will gladly deride a Reform Jew for doing likewise. I gather that the difference is the Secular Jew says, "eh, it's forbidden, groesse gedillah (big deal.)" The Reform Jew says "I still feel remotely guilty, but I have this explanation of how these rules apply in the modern era."

    At any rate, as you can tell, I can go on and on on this subject. If, as I believe is likely, we have a nice long discussion of which kinds of Jews the local non-Jews think are the best kind, etc., I think we should move this to the Religion forum.

    But there's your basic lay of the land.

    PFnV
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2009
  15. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Thanks, my oldest Grandaughter's Great Grandmother was a Jew (on her grandfather's side) I just pasted your post, I want to show it to her, no need to move the thread your answer was good..............
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2009

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