Discussion in 'Patriots Draft Talk' started by D-Money, Jan 3, 2011.
Anyone think OL Mike Pouncey would be available at 17?Thats the only OL i would take ahead of a DE.
Definitely, but I wouldn't take him.
I think there will be better value at that point than Pouncey. He and Wisniewski looked good but don't know if they should be above round 2
That would be my "throw the TV out the window" pick. He can't shotgun snap to save his life. Which means he's strictly an OG.
BB always says (I'm paraphrasing) "the more you can do the more value you have", and "if you can only play one position you better be extremely good at that one position".
Pouncey is an above average OG, but not head and shoulder above any other top interior OL. Besides, you guys know how I feel about drafting OGs high.
Pouncey will be available at 17.. But he's not a 1st round grade... Not yet anyways.. And, with the Juniors declaring, I doubt he sees the 1st round..
Pouncey is a mid-second rounder, IMHO.
New England's OG:
-- Mankins: played RT then LT at Fresno State before being drafted. 1st round pick.
-- Neal: World Class wrestler signed and developed on the PSquad (I have no doubt he'd have been a tackle in college, or on the D-Line).
-- Kaczur: Four year LT at Toledo. 3rd round pick.
-- Connolly: LT at Southeast Missouri State. Street Free Agent.
-- Wendell: Your into the fifth Guard in the hierarchy before you find a kid who started 48 consecutive games at Guard and Center for Fresno State earning All-WAC First Team (Coaches) his senior year ... and NE signed him as a UDFA.
-- Ojinnaka: Right Tackle at Syracuse.
-- Orhnberger: 34 straight starts at LG & RG for Penn State, AP ALL-American Third Team, ALL-Big Ten First Team (Coaches), he was a 4th round pick.
-- Austin: High School OT, Clemson moved him inside to C/G where he earned multiple awards from the ACC, 25 career starts in 34 games. Street Free Agent.
There's a trend here; NE drafts OTs in rounds 1-3 and moves them inside to play Guard. True Guards/Centers don't get drafted until Day Three (4-7) or are signed as free agents.
Pouncy/Wisneiwski -- Don't fit the profile. It's not just the current roster, go back to Hochstein, Yates, Andruzzi ... if you want someone in the early rounds to play Guard for NE, look at OTs 6-3/6-4ish, 300 lb +/- gazelles who have a couple seasons starting experience and ALL-Conference honors: Sherrod, Pinkston, Love, Cannon, Watkins, Ijalana, Boling ... look for good technicians and nasty dispositions on the field, or as Tommy says, "say hello to my litttle Mankins."
2011 NFL Mock Draft: Andrew Luck Remains No. 1 Overall Pick - SBNation.com
Box - I can remember when the Pats, under Belichick, had drafted only one player who was a Junior. That was Patrick Pass. Then came the 2004 draft and that dam was busted.
Then, I can remember when BB didn't draft LBs in the 1st round.. He drafted Mayo.. I can remember when he wouldn't draft a RB early.. He drafted Maroney..
The point is that historic trends do not always guarantee future actions..
It's all about VALUE.. And if Wisniewski can provide better value as a RG and future center in the early 2nd at a position where the Pats have a huge number of questions currently, then there is a chance the Pats would add him. Remember that Mankins is a UFA. Neal and Kaczur both have a huge history of injuries and both are on the north side of 30.. Connolly played well, but not outstanding. Wendell was Solid. Ojinakka, Ohrnberger and Austin are question marks.
Kaczur has only taken a few snaps at RG during games. He was drafted as a OT who could fill in at OG.
And I honestly believe that Mankins was drafted with every intent of moving him inside.
BTW, What about Mike Compton and Joe Andruzzi? Compton was a center in college who played guard and center for the Pats.. Andruzzi was primarily a guard in college, though he played all along the O-line.
Billy Yates started his last 20 games in college as a guard.
One of the things that I believe you are over-looking is that the Pats haven't had a NEED at guard like they have had now. And need does factor into the value equation.. Granted that need could change if they keep Mankins, but I wouldn't be surprised if they added Wisniewski with the intentions of moving him to center when Koppen's contract is up.
I think he'll make a really good to great NFL OG. His brother is already a very good player. He'll probably go higher than he should given the lack of O-Line depth in this years draft. I think 17 would be high for him, but I wouldn't complain if the Pats used No. 32 or 33 for him.
I don't like the idea of drafting guards high in the draft, but with the future of Mankins uncertain and Neal likely retiring, this is a major need that needs to be filled.
Cannon?? The guy is 350+ lbs.. I don't see it happening..
There is not a lack of depth for O-line talent. There is a lack of depth for CENTER talent. There is a plethora of college OTs who project to be starters in the NFL both at OT and OG... And there are some good guard candidates as well. And that is without any juniors declaring.
Who do you see as viable starters in this draft that the Patriots could play at OG in 2011 if Neal retires and Mankins doesn't resign?
Am I the only one that would rather have Bailey than Heyward? I see Heyward as a bust. You guys might know more about it than me, but it seems Bailey would be better suited for our defense.
I see both as busts in the Patriots' scheme.
I don't think BB will draft any UM players this year after that pathetic showing against ND. Especially Brandon Harris, who was manhandled and didn't seem to care.
When you see Pouncey on the mock draft boards so high, you realize that so much of the rankings are based on reputation, Pouncey is lucky enough that his bro played lights out this season; even though Mike himself did not. I would love to have him as a guard with a second rounder. Though 33 seems a tad bit high for him.
Agreed, historic trends are not guaranteed if the talent is there; however, they are trends for a reason and the challenge for us is to examine those trends and try to decipher what Scar & BB may have been using as criteria in the selection process and why they might consider "breaking profile" to disrupt another of our 'BB never' rules.
Historically, most football programs, at any level, move the less mobile kids inside to Guard, more athletic kids play Tackle or TE or on the D-line. This process seems to be the basis behind NE's draft choices for the OL with the exclusion of Center.
-- On BB's watch NE has drafted five OL in rounds 1-3 (small sample set),
---- all played LT in college - the limited data suggests the more athletic prospects are drafted higher;
---- one of those five OL was immediately moved inside to Guard to replace a departing starter;
---- the others stayed at Tackle (though one of those four was being groomed this season to replace a missing starter at Guard).
Early this season BB made the statement that he had five LTs on his roster - I forget if Ojinnaka was on the roster at the time or not, but if we exclude Mankins who was holding out that leaves Light, Vollmer, Kaczur, LaVoir, and Connolly. If we don't exclude Mankins and go by college position, Mankins replaces LaVoir who played LG & RT for Notre Dame.
Scar & BB have built this O-Line by drafting LTs, the current line features three starting college Left Tackles and two starting college C/Gs after placing Kaczur (LT) & Neal (World Class wrestler) on IR, and resting Connolly (LT). It may be a limited data set, but it's a very strong statement - NE wants very athletic OL and in college those players are Left Tackles.
If we examine what appeared to have been the planned starting line-up for this season, we find three LTs (Light, Mankins, Vollmer), one World Class athlete (Neal), and a Tom O'Brien Center (NE tried to get another but Tampa Bay grabbed him off waivers when they tried to sneak him to PSquad for further development). Add in Kaczur and Connolly who were projected to be the top two reserves and you have a five to two LT preponderance in the top seven OL.
The projected starting O-Line for the divisional round playoff game features four LTs. Call me gullible Db, but I'm buying the theory that Scar/BB prefer LTs in the draft when projecting any position but Center.
Scar has three Centers on the roster (at minimum), all of whom have snapped in regular & preseason games, one of the three was a college LT. The highest drafted Center was taken in the fourth round. If you lump Hochstein, Woody, Yates, and Thomas Austin into the history you see under BB the trend has been to draft Centers late or acquire free agents and develop them as reserve Centers.
-- Woody: Pre-BB era 1st round Center, replaced by Koppen.
-- Koppen: Current starting Center, 4th round Center.
-- Hochsten: Free Agent signing to the PSquad, developed by Scar.
-- Yates: Free Agent signing to the PSquad, developed by Scar.
-- Connolly: Free Agent signing to the PSquad, developed by Scar.
-- Wendell: Free Agent signing to the PSquad, developed by Scar.
-- Austin: Free Agent signing to the PSquad, being developed by Scar.
I give you leave to fall in love with Wisneiwski or Pouncy or any college C/G of your choice, but if Scar/BB are shopping for a replacement Guard in this draft I'm betting they look first to LTs, and somehow, I don't think they are interested in drafting a first round Center (call it a hunch ).
One problem with drafting an OG early is, what happens if they don't pan out exactly as expected? Many OTs that don't play up to their draft position transition to OG and have good careers there.
I think the same risk can apply to S also. If a CB doesn't play up to their draft position they often can be moved to safety, but where does the safety that doesn't quite work out go? (In Meriwether's case the pro bowl, twice. )
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