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Oklahoma City pharmacist Jerome Ersland found guilty of murder in killing of suspect

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by PatsWSB47, Jun 1, 2011.

  1. PatsWSB47

    PatsWSB47 Rookie

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    Life in prison? I think that's harsh. It went beyond self defense but I can see how someone might lose it after his family and he were seconds before looking down the barrel of a gun.


  2. scout

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    #15 Jersey

    Re: Oklahoma City pharmacist Jerome Ersland found guilty of murder in killing of susp

    Just saw the news coverage of it on tv. Life sounds about right. Prosecution had videotape of the incident (more or less). kid comes into store with gun. Clerks run. Store manager shoots kid. Kid falls on ground and laying there, not dead. Manager goes to back of store and gets another gun. Comes back (now, out of video) and fires 5 shots into kid. Now, kid is dead. So, the town is outraged that the manager got life? If the manager is concerned that kid is still a threat, how about kicking gun away from kid. Seen it on tv numerous times. No, let me go back to my office and get that other gun and fire five rounds into suspect. Outrage? Yea, town is outraged and politician is going to write new bill because of this injustice.............
  3. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    Re: Oklahoma City pharmacist Jerome Ersland found guilty of murder in killing of susp

    How about....the kid that got killed never even had a gun?

    The police investigation determined only Ingram (the other kid, the one who ran away) had a gun and only the pharmacist fired any shots. The detective also testified Ersland shot Parker five more times after chasing the second robber away, coming back to the store and getting a second gun from a drawer.

    Read more: Ersland trial jury tours Reliable Discount Pharmacy in Oklahoma City | NewsOK.com
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    Re: Oklahoma City pharmacist Jerome Ersland found guilty of murder in killing of susp

    How is his family involved? I read that it was the pharmacist and two employees in the store.....I did not read anything that says either of those employees were family members, tho.

    As for "looking down the barrel of a gun" the kid that got killed didn't have a gun.

    His partner did - and his partner ran out of the store as soon as the pharmacist started shooting.
  5. chicowalker

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    Re: Oklahoma City pharmacist Jerome Ersland found guilty of murder in killing of susp

    I don't think that matters if the guy had reason to think the kid also had a gun.

    That said, this seems black and white to me. It's unfortunate, because the guy was a crime victim, and he acted well within his rights to defend himself and his employees from the punks trying to rob him.

    But when you then get a 2nd gun, seemingly pretty calmly (some caution here, since the video isn't the best), and then fire multiple rounds into a kid who already had been shot? without something indicating that he was still a threat, or that the pharmacist was in a rage, 1st degree murder sounds right -- unfortunately.

    I wonder what the minimum he has to serve is. I'd have no problem with him getting parole as soon as legally possible from the little I know about the situation here.
  6. PatsWSB47

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    Re: Oklahoma City pharmacist Jerome Ersland found guilty of murder in killing of susp

    I thought one of the employees was in his family and that makes a little difference, yeah, my mistake. Family might cause someone to even be more aggressive. The point is one of them had a gun and threatened with it. The video shows that clearly. Whether the guy knew who he shot at had one or not I don't know but under those circumstances he might just be reacting to the the threat as he judged it, initially. The whole thing only took about 2 minutes and in the fog of war, emotions and adrenaline can really take over. I don't think he shouldn't be convicted of something and shouldn't spend some jail time but he didn't ask that his store be robbed at gunpoint and he and his employees life were threatened just 2 minutes prior. His emotional state of mind that he didn't intend to find himself in, must be considered here.
  7. wistahpatsfan

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    Re: Oklahoma City pharmacist Jerome Ersland found guilty of murder in killing of susp

    I'm not supporting the robber. He's a scumbag. But the "fog of war"? Really?
    The same could be said of any armed robber who shoots a store owner during a struggle. That's a lame excuse. Most people don't do what this a-hole did. He murdered the kid. The penalty for accessory to armed robbery is not death.
  8. Gainzo

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    Re: Oklahoma City pharmacist Jerome Ersland found guilty of murder in killing of susp

    In a very red state like Oklahoma he probably would have been acquitted if he didn't pull the 2nd gun and shoot the robber 5 times. The jury made the correct decision IMO.
  9. PatsWSB47

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    Re: Oklahoma City pharmacist Jerome Ersland found guilty of murder in killing of susp

    I've been consistent from the start that he brought it beyond self defense and that he should be charged and should go to jail. I think life is too harsh.

    I think someone can be in a highly charged emotional state for 2 or three minutes and do things they might not normally do. This has been a known by police departments for some time now. The adrenalin rush has been blamed for many police overreacting with high speed chase subjects once they catch up with them. They are now trained to control that emotional situation. I think you can call that a "fog of war"
  10. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    Re: Oklahoma City pharmacist Jerome Ersland found guilty of murder in killing of susp

    I don't know how long of a time transpired between the first time he shot this kid and the rest of the times he shot the kid....sounds like everything that happened in between time would have taken longer than 2 or 3 minutes, tho.

    I don't know if you've read this accounting or not ...Ersland trial jury tours Reliable Discount Pharmacy in Oklahoma City | NewsOK.com

    It's pretty detailed and it shows that the pharmacist has a big problem with either knowing the truth or telling the truth. He lied to the police about almost everything - which does not put him so much in an "emotional state" as it does a "cover your *****" state. The guy went so far as to explain that he couldn't run away with the rest of his employees because he wore a back brace as a result of artillery attack while he was in Iraq. He also said he suffered from PTSD and that he had killed alot of people there.

    Records show Ersland spent the Gulf War in 1991 as the pharmacy chief at the military hospital at Altus Air Force Base in southwestern Oklahoma.

    Nothing he said about the actual shooting was backed up by evidence at the scene, either.

    Just sayin......
  11. DarrylS

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    Re: Oklahoma City pharmacist Jerome Ersland found guilty of murder in killing of susp

    The sentence for 1st degree murder is either the death sentence of life without parole.. there is nothing gray here. He will be sentenced 11 July..

    Oklahoma - First-degree Murder in Conjunction with 1 of 8 Aggravating Circumstances - Death Penalty - ProCon.org

  12. Gainzo

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    Re: Oklahoma City pharmacist Jerome Ersland found guilty of murder in killing of susp

    After reading the article you linked Ersland was full of garbage in his statement to police. Didn't he know he had a camera in his own pharmacy?

    To me this quote sums up what Ersland is all about:

    He wanted to shoot someone and he succeeded in shooting the same person 6 times. 5 times after the person was incapacitated.

    DarrylS: They don't mess around with sentences for murder convictions in the South. Good find on the Oklahoma law.
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2011
  13. Harry Boy

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    Re: Oklahoma City pharmacist Jerome Ersland found guilty of murder in killing of susp

    Shooters Mistake
    Big Mistake getting another gun after the crook was shot, now he will pay for that mistake.

    Dead Punks Mistake
    He should have gone to the movies instead of trying to steal other peoples property, now he pays for that mistake.

    Warning Scumbags:
    Almost every store in America has a gun, they are sick of your sh!t, if you plan on robbing a store you better wear a bullet proof vest, the people are starting to "fight back".

    One thing is for sure, this dead crook picked the wrong guy to rob.
    Another thing for sure "that punk will never rob another store"
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2011
  14. PatsWSB47

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    Re: Oklahoma City pharmacist Jerome Ersland found guilty of murder in killing of susp

    The video has a clock that is running and it all took place in less than 3 minutes. I'm basing my thoughts on that video. I hadn't read the accounting and yeah he's a liar and once the dust settled and he had his wits about him he knew he crossed the line and thought he could lie his way out of any guilt. What he said about the shooting may not have been backed up but that less than 3 minute video can be explained by a guy out of control emotionally. It doesn't excuse him but it can explain it. I am open to the idea that he was a s cool as a cucumber, but that would be more remarkable to me than if he were out of control. I don't want to make this guy out a hero or anything though.

    EDIT: And the dreaming about it thing. i don't think he was testifying that he dreamed about it like you would dream about winning the superbowl. they could have been bad dreams that haunted him.
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2011
  15. PatsWSB47

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  16. Gainzo

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    Re: Oklahoma City pharmacist Jerome Ersland found guilty of murder in killing of susp

    The Oklahoma authorities thought otherwise. They put him on trial for Murder. What would you have charged him with? Manslaughter?

    BTW: He never served in the Gulf. He was a pharmacist at a Military Hospital in Oklahoma.
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2011
  17. PatsWSB47

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    Re: Oklahoma City pharmacist Jerome Ersland found guilty of murder in killing of susp

    I can see the argument for first degree murder because he came back but it occurred too quickly as far as I'm concerned for that. 2nd degree murder for sure , maybe manslaughter.
  18. chicowalker

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    Re: Oklahoma City pharmacist Jerome Ersland found guilty of murder in killing of susp

    That's absolutely true, but a couple thoughts. First, this is where the video hurts him. He just doesn't look in anyway agitated. That may not be accurate, particularly given the video quality and lack of audio, but he looks pretty calm.

    Second, I think this is something where the onus is on the gun owner (or anybody owning / wielding a weapon). I've thought about this a lot in considering whether to purchase a gun. I've always come out on the side of caution, as I'm aware that I have a temper. This is where it's particularly unfortunate, as he seemingly was a law-abiding citizen, and he initially was defending himself and his employees. but in owning a gun, he had a responsibility to use it appropriately. He did so at first. Then he failed, and that's a tragedy for all involved.
  19. PatsWSB47

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    Re: Oklahoma City pharmacist Jerome Ersland found guilty of murder in killing of susp

    And that's why he should go to jail. I just think life is too harsh.
  20. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    Re: Oklahoma City pharmacist Jerome Ersland found guilty of murder in killing of susp

    Ah, ok. I missed that part. Sorry. Still, he had enough time to get back in the store, see the guy lying in the same position on the floor, step over him, get another gun and come back and shoot him several more times. If you've got the time to do that, you've got the time to think about what you're doing.

    He told the cop who was interrogating him after the shooting that he had killed alot of people in Iraq and he knew he had to do it but he dreamed about it every night......and you're right, they could have been very bad dreams - but they weren't his dreams because he'd never been in Iraq in the first place.

    Between the stories about his war experiences and his puffed up account of the shooting he sounds very much like the kind of man who really does have dreams about killing people - and I mean "dreams" as in, "boy, I hope I get to do that someday coz that would be soooo cool and I would be so the man."
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2011
  21. chicowalker

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    Re: Oklahoma City pharmacist Jerome Ersland found guilty of murder in killing of susp

    I wonder if he was ever offered a plea. It seems like the kind of situation where they might, both to account for the circumstances and to avoid the chance of a sympathetic jury.
  22. PatsWSB47

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    Re: Oklahoma City pharmacist Jerome Ersland found guilty of murder in killing of susp

    I thought about that too. If so maybe bad lawyer advise or maybe arrogance.
  23. DarrylS

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    Re: Oklahoma City pharmacist Jerome Ersland found guilty of murder in killing of susp


    The jury of his peers decided 1st degree murder, not manslaughter which would have been a lesser offense, and less time... the law is the law.
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2011
  24. chicowalker

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    Re: Oklahoma City pharmacist Jerome Ersland found guilty of murder in killing of susp

    All of that is accurate, darryl, and as I posted already, I have no qualms with the verdict, but let's not pretend that the system is foolproof. Prosecutors can be overaggressive or, worse, dishonest, charges don't always fit the crime, etc.

    (In this case, for ex, yes, I think it was premeditated -- but premeditated in the same sense as the guy who stalks his ex and decides to kill her, buys a gun for the purpose and does it? Seems to me that they are 2 different crimes, yet the charges might well be the same.)
  25. patsfan13

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    Re: Oklahoma City pharmacist Jerome Ersland found guilty of murder in killing of susp

    1st degree murder seems like a lot 2nd degree would make sense he definitely earned a long stretch in jail. Don't know enough about the case to say for sure.
  26. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    Re: Oklahoma City pharmacist Jerome Ersland found guilty of murder in killing of susp

    The jury had the option of acquitting him or of which charges to find him guilty of. I presume they knew, or at least thought they knew, what they were doing.

    The judge can still suspend all or part of his sentence.

    First, Ersland must go before the judge in the case, Oklahoma County District Judge Ray Elliott, on July 11, for sentencing.

    The judge could suspend part or all of the life term. If he chooses to uphold the jury's full suggestion, Ersland will not be eligible for parole for another 38 years and three months.

    Jurors had the option of finding Ersland guilty of first-degree manslaughter instead of murder, or of acquitting him
    .


    Life Sentence for Oklahoma Pharmacist Sparks Debate - ABC News
  27. DarrylS

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    Re: Oklahoma City pharmacist Jerome Ersland found guilty of murder in killing of susp

    Not defending anything.. just saying that this jury could have convicted him of a lesser offense, but they chose not to.. all of the information from the trial has not been released, so there may be more to this.

    Judicial systems have a lot of checks and balances, and this guy was represented by an attorney who should have made sure that they knew the law prior to taking a vote..

    An AG can be overagressive and overcharge, but there are other players in the court process who can neutralize this.. the judge gives instructions to the jury before they deliberate and explains the law. Oklahoma is not exactly a bastion of liberal values.. he was found guilty by a jury of his peers.

    All of the conclusions here are based on one short article.. there is much more information that we do not know..

    The reality is that he crossed a very fine line between defending his property and unreasonable force.. He crossed it when he fired five shots into an unarmed person who was lying helplessly on the floor after suffering a gunshot wound to the head. Had he not retrieved the second weapon (which clearly indicates malice of forethough*t) and executed the assailant he would not have been charged with homicide. To all those who refuse to accept the fact that he crossed the line and BROKE THE LAW by oversteppi*ng the boundaries of reasonable force read the state statue as it pertains to this matter. It is very clear and it applies to us all. Just because you're angry it doesn't give you the right to put five rounds into an already incapacitated criminal.
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2011
  28. PatriotsReign

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    Re: Oklahoma City pharmacist Jerome Ersland found guilty of murder in killing of susp

    Let us just be clear that the age of the robber isn't relevant to anything even on a sympathy level. We have to be careful when we use the term "Kid"...as if somehow it makes this incident more tragic.

    In this case, the pharmacist initially did the right thing. Why on earth he took it to the level of murder, only he knows. I will say that I could understand if the pharmacist was overcome by rage even after he initially shot the kid.

    I think I'd experience something similar....I'd be extremely angry if an armed thief (or 2) came into my home. Even if I shot the perpetrator, I'd still be standing there angry as hell that this person eff'd up my day and my life.

    I think I actully have as much sympathy for the pharmacist as I do for the guy he killed.
  29. scout

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    #15 Jersey

    Re: Oklahoma City pharmacist Jerome Ersland found guilty of murder in killing of susp

    Lets' just cut to the chase. The pharmacist executed an unarmed robber without the guilty party having a right to an attorney, a trial, or verdict.
  30. Harry Boy

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    Re: Oklahoma City pharmacist Jerome Ersland found guilty of murder in killing of susp

    The pharmacist definately has a problem, getting another gun and shooting the crook again when he was no threat is what sent him to jail.

    Now the pharmacist himself will be killed, in jail.

    None of this would have happened if those two scumbags had just gone and played tiddlywinks somewhere.

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