OK, I reviewed the Senior Bowl tape

[Remix 6]

i thought he was the guy who took off his helmet and hit someone with it...if not..who was that?

Meriweather - stomped on a guy

Anthony Reddick - took his helmet off and swung it at players

 

[sebman2112]

Are you just talking about practice, or the actual SB game?

I watched practice as well, but I also watched the actual game twice...

At Safety Brandon Meriweather looked the best on the field.....

Really, Meriweather was all over the field making plays, filling hard against the run, wrapping up, using sound technique, good pursuit, good pass coverage at Safety, and CB, and delivered a few nice hits. That is my opinion after watching him. Here is the opinion of another scout (mostly talks about his coverage skills):

01/28/07 - Senior Bowl Prospect Summary - Brandon Meriweather, FS, Miami: If Meriweather didn't have the questionable off-field issues, he'd be an easy first round pick. Though he lacks prototype size for the free safety position, so did another former Miami free safety, Ed Reed, who seems to have enjoyed some success at the NFL despite his lack of measureables. Like Reed, Meriweather reads the quarterback beautifully and has rare burst for the position to make plays on the ball. With Texas' Aaron Ross being sidelined early with a possible concussion, Meriweather was moved to cornerback, at times, during the game, and blanketed wideouts. He broke up a pass in the second half in the end zone, showing the change of direction and quick hands usually reserved for cornerbacks.

Also, during the actual SB game Patrick Willis was all over the field making plays. I did see a few instances where he got washed out during running plays, but during other plays he was very good at the point of attack. No other LB made as many plays in that game.


It can be hard to tell how good these guys are going t be just by watching the seniorbowl, and sometimes even watching their college film can't really tell you everything. For instance, Patrick Willis played at Ole Miss. They run a 4-3 defense where Willis made most of the plays, and was a force. Now did he have four bodies infront of him, eating up blockers? Yes. Now were those D-Linemen on the level of OSU's, Mchigan's, or other top level schools? No. I don't think we've even seen how effective this guy can be, since he hasn't been playing behind the best D-Line in college. He was very effective behind that line, and by far their best defensive player. Take someone who is that good behind an Ole Miss D-Line and put him behind Wilfork, Warren, and Seymour. Then have Thomas, Vrabel, and Colvin working next to him, and we'll see how effective he can be.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Are you just talking about practice, or the actual SB game?
Also, during the actual SB game Patrick Willis was all over the field making plays. I did see a few instances where he got washed out during running plays, but during other plays he was very good at the point of attack. No other LB made as many plays in that game.

The Senior Bowl game.

Granted, the Senior Bowl is not the best indicator of player performance in the NFL, but it and some practice tape are all I have for anybody I'm evaluating. Willis is no more disadvantaged by this then Bradley or Carriker is, I have the same resources to make my decision, poor though they may be. Be thankful I'm not going to be sitting at the Gillette draft table.

Yes, Willis was all over the field making plays, read that again, all over the field. If you want a sideline to sideline MLB he's a good choice, if you want a two-gap 3-4 defender who will be dealing with OL on nearly every play his performance in the Senior Bowl was sadly lacking as I saw it. I would not say he was the South's best LB, Taylor and Davis are ahead of him as I perceived the game. If I was to take one of the three it would be Taylor to replace Don Davis - I came away from the game thinking he would be a better choice for the Pats if they took a too small LB.

Willis had 11 tackles and led the south team vs Stewart Bradley who had 5 and led the North - the North ran 70 plays, the South 41. Willis had one or two more opportunities to make a play. http://www.seniorbowl.com/2007/2007seniorbowlstats.htm

In that one All-Star game I would not categorize Willis as "very good at the point of attack," my impression was Willis usually went backward when meeting Mr. Hunt and Mr. Leonard. Below is the play-by-play listing Willis as tackler. If you throw out the 35 yd reverse as an anomoly, you get 5 run stops for 13 yds and an avg. of 2.6 yds, unfortunately two of those stops went for first downs. A decent run stopping performance on paper, but it doesn't account for plays like the 7 yd TD run where Beekman pancaked Willis or the 11 yd scamper to set up the last TD where Leonard blocked Willis and the OLB at the same time. The passing tackles went for an average of almost 11 yds, they do show Willis with good range.

From play-by-play: Here's Willis' 10 tackles (+1 STs)
1-5 at North45 Jason Hill rush reverse for 35 yards to the SOUTH20, 1ST DOWN NORTH (Patrick Willis).
3-9 at South19 Troy Smith screen pass complete to Tony Hunt for 7 yards to the SOUTH12 (Quentin Moses;Patrick Willis).
4-2 at South12 Brian Leonard rush over right tackle for 5 yards to the SOUTH7, 1ST DOWN NORTH (Patrick Willis).
2-8 at North23 Drew Stanton middle pass complete to Scott Chandler for 11 yards to the NORTH34, 1ST DOWN NORTH (Patrick Willis).
2-8 at North36 Kolby Smith rush draw play for 2 yards to the NORTH38 (Patrick Willis;Tank Tyler).
3-6 at North38 Drew Stanton sideline pass complete to Paul Williams for 12 yards to the 50 yardline, 1ST DOWN NORTH, out-of-bounds (Patrick Willis)
2-10 at North50 Thomas Clayton rush over right end for 2 yards to the SOUTH48 (Patrick Willis).
1-10 at South12 Thomas Clayton rush over left end for 1 yard to the SOUTH11 (Patrick Willis;Chase Pittman).
2-11 at South16 Tyler Palko middle pass complete to Thomas Clayton to the SOUTH3, fumble forced by Patrick Willis, fumble by Thomas Clayton recovered by NORTH TEAM at SOUTH3, 1ST DOWN NORTH, out-of-bounds.
3-2 at North17 Thomas Clayton rush over left tackle for 3 yards to the NORTH20, 1ST DOWN NORTH (Patrick Willis).

For comparison Bradley was the North's top tackler with 4 (+1 STs):
2-4 at South30 Lorenzo Booker rush up middle for 1 yard to the SOUTH31 (Stewart Bradley).
1-10 at South45 Jordan Palmer sideline pass complete to J.L. Higgins for 29 yards to the NORTH26, 1ST DOWN SOUTH (Stewart Bradley).
1-10 at South45 Kevin Kolb screen pass complete to Dallas Baker to the 50 yardline, fumble forced by Stewart Bradley, fumble by Dallas Baker recovered by SOUTH TEAM at 50 yardline, out-of-bounds.
2-7 at South32 Ken Darby rush over left tackle for loss of 1 yard to the SOUTH31 (Stewart Bradley).

Bradley has two run stops for an avg of zero, and he showed some range with his stop on the Higgins' 29 yd reception. He flipped between WLB and SLB, Willis was mostly MLB with some SLB reps. Willis had more reps and played "mike" who generally has more tackles. 60% of Willis' tackles occured after a first down was achieved, 25% for Bradley. A poor sample I know, but it's all I've got with the write-ups on both players. On paper they both did okay, but watching the game, Bradley still looked like the more complete choice for 3-4 LB, in his case one who could play inside or out.

I know you like Willis and you saw his play differently as you watched the game, we'll have to agree to disagree. At the moment Willis is not on my board and Bradley is my #1 ILB target. For what it's worth, I actually lowered Carriker's value after re-watching the game. I thought Jay Moore did nearly as well and would be a very good value in the middle rounds. With Branch falling, Okoye may be the first off behind Adams who I don't get too excited about anyway.

 

[sebman2112]

The Senior Bowl game.

Granted, the Senior Bowl is not the best indicator of player performance in the NFL, but it and some practice tape are all I have for anybody I'm evaluating. Willis is no more disadvantaged by this then Bradley or Carriker is, I have the same resources to make my decision, poor though they may be. Be thankful I'm not going to be sitting at the Gillette draft table.

Yes, Willis was all over the field making plays, read that again, all over the field. If you want a sideline to sideline MLB he's a good choice, if you want a two-gap 3-4 defender who will be dealing with OL on nearly every play his performance in the Senior Bowl was sadly lacking as I saw it. I would not say he was the South's best LB, Taylor and Davis are ahead of him as I perceived the game. If I was to take one of the three it would be Taylor to replace Don Davis - I came away from the game thinking he would be a better choice for the Pats if they took a too small LB.

Willis had 11 tackles and led the south team vs Stewart Bradley who had 5 and led the North - the North ran 70 plays, the South 41. Willis had one or two more opportunities to make a play. http://www.seniorbowl.com/2007/2007seniorbowlstats.htm

In that one All-Star game I would not categorize Willis as "very good at the point of attack," my impression was Willis usually went backward when meeting Mr. Hunt and Mr. Leonard. Below is the play-by-play listing Willis as tackler. If you throw out the 35 yd reverse as an anomoly, you get 5 run stops for 13 yds and an avg. of 2.6 yds, unfortunately two of those stops went for first downs. A decent run stopping performance on paper, but it doesn't account for plays like the 7 yd TD run where Beekman pancaked Willis or the 11 yd scamper to set up the last TD where Leonard blocked Willis and the OLB at the same time. The passing tackles went for an average of almost 11 yds, they do show Willis with good range.

From play-by-play: Here's Willis' 10 tackles (+1 STs)
1-5 at North45 Jason Hill rush reverse for 35 yards to the SOUTH20, 1ST DOWN NORTH (Patrick Willis).
3-9 at South19 Troy Smith screen pass complete to Tony Hunt for 7 yards to the SOUTH12 (Quentin Moses;Patrick Willis).
4-2 at South12 Brian Leonard rush over right tackle for 5 yards to the SOUTH7, 1ST DOWN NORTH (Patrick Willis).
2-8 at North23 Drew Stanton middle pass complete to Scott Chandler for 11 yards to the NORTH34, 1ST DOWN NORTH (Patrick Willis).
2-8 at North36 Kolby Smith rush draw play for 2 yards to the NORTH38 (Patrick Willis;Tank Tyler).
3-6 at North38 Drew Stanton sideline pass complete to Paul Williams for 12 yards to the 50 yardline, 1ST DOWN NORTH, out-of-bounds (Patrick Willis)
2-10 at North50 Thomas Clayton rush over right end for 2 yards to the SOUTH48 (Patrick Willis).
1-10 at South12 Thomas Clayton rush over left end for 1 yard to the SOUTH11 (Patrick Willis;Chase Pittman).
2-11 at South16 Tyler Palko middle pass complete to Thomas Clayton to the SOUTH3, fumble forced by Patrick Willis, fumble by Thomas Clayton recovered by NORTH TEAM at SOUTH3, 1ST DOWN NORTH, out-of-bounds.
3-2 at North17 Thomas Clayton rush over left tackle for 3 yards to the NORTH20, 1ST DOWN NORTH (Patrick Willis).

For comparison Bradley was the North's top tackler with 4 (+1 STs):
2-4 at South30 Lorenzo Booker rush up middle for 1 yard to the SOUTH31 (Stewart Bradley).
1-10 at South45 Jordan Palmer sideline pass complete to J.L. Higgins for 29 yards to the NORTH26, 1ST DOWN SOUTH (Stewart Bradley).
1-10 at South45 Kevin Kolb screen pass complete to Dallas Baker to the 50 yardline, fumble forced by Stewart Bradley, fumble by Dallas Baker recovered by SOUTH TEAM at 50 yardline, out-of-bounds.
2-7 at South32 Ken Darby rush over left tackle for loss of 1 yard to the SOUTH31 (Stewart Bradley).

Bradley has two run stops for an avg of zero, and he showed some range with his stop on the Higgins' 29 yd reception. He flipped between WLB and SLB, Willis was mostly MLB with some SLB reps. Willis had more reps and played "mike" who generally has more tackles. 60% of Willis' tackles occured after a first down was achieved, 25% for Bradley. A poor sample I know, but it's all I've got with the write-ups on both players. On paper they both did okay, but watching the game, Bradley still looked like the more complete choice for 3-4 LB, in his case one who could play inside or out.

I know you like Willis and you saw his play differently as you watched the game, we'll have to agree to disagree. At the moment Willis is not on my board and Bradley is my #1 ILB target. For what it's worth, I actually lowered Carriker's value after re-watching the game. I thought Jay Moore did nearly as well and would be a very good value in the middle rounds. With Branch falling, Okoye may be the first off behind Adams who I don't get too excited about anyway.

What about Meriweather?

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

What about Meriweather?

Very good player with a big red behavioral flag. I am unable to evaluate him from a behavioral standpoint, I won't put him on my board. If the Pats who do have the resources to do a full background investigation elect to draft him I'm not kicking, the talent and performance is clearly there.

 

[PonyExpress]

Your game reviews are fascinating, but can also be subjective. I thought Ugoh struggled mightily, and Spencer showed power + the athleticism in pursuit that could translate well to OLB. LB Taylor looked smooth and athletic in drills but a bit lost in space during the game, especially vs Leonard as I recall. But I like Taylor in real game action (see vs. Wake Forest). It's true the last Moore sack was legit, but it came late and I felt the South O-Line was so shellshocked by then it was more garbage than real. But I like Moore too. Willis showed alot. He took a shot came back and stuck his nose in and showed great range. He can take a hit and dish it out, and he is an excellent tackler in space. He has long arms but doesn't use them well enough to get off blocks, looks stiff at times and takes false steps. But he has real talent. I liked Harris better as a 3-4, he looks like a more fluid natural athlete in tight spaces making quick decisions and translating it on the field. S Griffin whiffed on several tackles and took bad angles, this carried over from the college season and raises a flag for a potential 1st rd pick.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Your game reviews are fascinating, but can also be subjective. I thought Ugoh struggled mightily, and Spencer showed power + the athleticism in pursuit that could translate well to OLB. LB Taylor looked smooth and athletic in drills but a bit lost in space during the game, especially vs Leonard as I recall. But I like Taylor in real game action (see vs. Wake Forest). It's true the last Moore sack was legit, but it came late and I felt the South O-Line was so shellshocked by then it was more garbage than real. But I like Moore too. Willis showed alot. He took a shot came back and stuck his nose in and showed great range. He can take a hit and dish it out, and he is an excellent tackler in space. He has long arms but doesn't use them well enough to get off blocks, looks stiff at times and takes false steps. But he has real talent. I liked Harris better as a 3-4, he looks like a more fluid natural athlete in tight spaces making quick decisions and translating it on the field. S Griffin whiffed on several tackles and took bad angles, this carried over from the college season and raises a flag for a potential 1st rd pick.

Define subjective as you perceive it, said the kettle to the pot?

 

[PonyExpress]

The Senior Bowl game.

Granted, the Senior Bowl is not the best indicator of player performance in the NFL, but it and some practice tape are all I have for anybody I'm evaluating. Willis is no more disadvantaged by this then Bradley or Carriker is, I have the same resources to make my decision, poor though they may be. Be thankful I'm not going to be sitting at the Gillette draft table.

Yes, Willis was all over the field making plays, read that again, all over the field. If you want a sideline to sideline MLB he's a good choice, if you want a two-gap 3-4 defender who will be dealing with OL on nearly every play his performance in the Senior Bowl was sadly lacking as I saw it. I would not say he was the South's best LB, Taylor and Davis are ahead of him as I perceived the game. If I was to take one of the three it would be Taylor to replace Don Davis - I came away from the game thinking he would be a better choice for the Pats if they took a too small LB.

Willis had 11 tackles and led the south team vs Stewart Bradley who had 5 and led the North - the North ran 70 plays, the South 41. Willis had one or two more opportunities to make a play. http://www.seniorbowl.com/2007/2007seniorbowlstats.htm

In that one All-Star game I would not categorize Willis as "very good at the point of attack," my impression was Willis usually went backward when meeting Mr. Hunt and Mr. Leonard. Below is the play-by-play listing Willis as tackler. If you throw out the 35 yd reverse as an anomoly, you get 5 run stops for 13 yds and an avg. of 2.6 yds, unfortunately two of those stops went for first downs. A decent run stopping performance on paper, but it doesn't account for plays like the 7 yd TD run where Beekman pancaked Willis or the 11 yd scamper to set up the last TD where Leonard blocked Willis and the OLB at the same time. The passing tackles went for an average of almost 11 yds, they do show Willis with good range.

From play-by-play: Here's Willis' 10 tackles (+1 STs)
1-5 at North45 Jason Hill rush reverse for 35 yards to the SOUTH20, 1ST DOWN NORTH (Patrick Willis).
3-9 at South19 Troy Smith screen pass complete to Tony Hunt for 7 yards to the SOUTH12 (Quentin Moses;Patrick Willis).
4-2 at South12 Brian Leonard rush over right tackle for 5 yards to the SOUTH7, 1ST DOWN NORTH (Patrick Willis).
2-8 at North23 Drew Stanton middle pass complete to Scott Chandler for 11 yards to the NORTH34, 1ST DOWN NORTH (Patrick Willis).
2-8 at North36 Kolby Smith rush draw play for 2 yards to the NORTH38 (Patrick Willis;Tank Tyler).
3-6 at North38 Drew Stanton sideline pass complete to Paul Williams for 12 yards to the 50 yardline, 1ST DOWN NORTH, out-of-bounds (Patrick Willis)
2-10 at North50 Thomas Clayton rush over right end for 2 yards to the SOUTH48 (Patrick Willis).
1-10 at South12 Thomas Clayton rush over left end for 1 yard to the SOUTH11 (Patrick Willis;Chase Pittman).
2-11 at South16 Tyler Palko middle pass complete to Thomas Clayton to the SOUTH3, fumble forced by Patrick Willis, fumble by Thomas Clayton recovered by NORTH TEAM at SOUTH3, 1ST DOWN NORTH, out-of-bounds.
3-2 at North17 Thomas Clayton rush over left tackle for 3 yards to the NORTH20, 1ST DOWN NORTH (Patrick Willis).

For comparison Bradley was the North's top tackler with 4 (+1 STs):
2-4 at South30 Lorenzo Booker rush up middle for 1 yard to the SOUTH31 (Stewart Bradley).
1-10 at South45 Jordan Palmer sideline pass complete to J.L. Higgins for 29 yards to the NORTH26, 1ST DOWN SOUTH (Stewart Bradley).
1-10 at South45 Kevin Kolb screen pass complete to Dallas Baker to the 50 yardline, fumble forced by Stewart Bradley, fumble by Dallas Baker recovered by SOUTH TEAM at 50 yardline, out-of-bounds.
2-7 at South32 Ken Darby rush over left tackle for loss of 1 yard to the SOUTH31 (Stewart Bradley).

Bradley has two run stops for an avg of zero, and he showed some range with his stop on the Higgins' 29 yd reception. He flipped between WLB and SLB, Willis was mostly MLB with some SLB reps. Willis had more reps and played "mike" who generally has more tackles. 60% of Willis' tackles occured after a first down was achieved, 25% for Bradley. A poor sample I know, but it's all I've got with the write-ups on both players. On paper they both did okay, but watching the game, Bradley still looked like the more complete choice for 3-4 LB, in his case one who could play inside or out.

I know you like Willis and you saw his play differently as you watched the game, we'll have to agree to disagree. At the moment Willis is not on my board and Bradley is my #1 ILB target. For what it's worth, I actually lowered Carriker's value after re-watching the game. I thought Jay Moore did nearly as well and would be a very good value in the middle rounds. With Branch falling, Okoye may be the first off behind Adams who I don't get too excited about anyway.

The North D-line dominated in this game, and the South D-Line was often porous. I like Bradley, but comparing him to Willis in isolation without including the state of the surrounding talent can be unintentionally misleading. Similarly, during the reg. season, Bradley was playing behind Carriker and Moore, while Willis had a sieve O-line and only Rory Johnosn of note to back him up.

 

[PonyExpress]

Define subjective as you perceive it, said the kettle to the pot?

Very true. If I recommend a player, you should probably cross him off your list.:bricks:

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

The North D-line dominated in this game, and the South D-Line was often porous. I like Bradley, but comparing him to Willis in isolation without including the state of the surrounding talent can be unintentionally misleading. Similarly, during the reg. season, Bradley was playing behind Carriker and Moore, while Willis had a sieve O-line and only Rory Johnosn of note to back him up.

Certainly, perhaps this line in my closing paragraph should have been in bold type: "With the exception of Abiamiri, the North D-line was outstanding and dominated the LOS making it very easy for the back seven."

Willis has been a popular LB from before the season started, one who has a strong cult-like following and easy name recognition. He was the featured star amongst southern front seven players. Bradley didn't cross many radars before the Senior Bowl, there he shared the limelight with Carriker, Okoye, and Harris. I am indeed subjective in that I am interested in players who look to fit well within my 3-4 "profile" bias. Willis made my minimum "profile" requirements and has been observed on what little tape I have and read about in the same draft site reports. Bradley has gotten the same level of treatment. Despite all the mocksters and draft pundits ranking Willis as a first round talent and top ILB star, my evaluation indicated the other kid would be a better fit, you know, the lesser known one who barely breaks the second round in obscure mockster/pundit thinking. **sigh** Just call me easily swayed by popular opinion.