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Oh, and the patriots are the cheaters right?

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by Nitro, Sep 26, 2007.

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  1. Nitro

    Nitro Rookie

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    #22 Jersey

    Heres a story about what teams are doing with the radios.

    "The coach said he knew of one team that equipped its backup quarterback with a device that allowed the backup to feed information to the starter after the 15-second cutoff."

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=sando_mike&id=3035449

    And NE is out a 1st rounder for taping what can be seen from an entire stadium?
    At least the writer added "None of these coaches implicated the Patriots"
  2. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    It just pisses me off to no end that the NFL literally stole a #1 pick from us. The only good that came out of it was us finding out that Belichick is signed through 2013 :D
  3. PromisedLand

    PromisedLand Virtual Internet Person

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    The reason we were fined and docked a draft pick is that we were caught red-handed. If and when the NFL gets solid evidence of another team cheating* I believe the punishment will be similar.

    *Or breaking rules, or whatever description you prefer.
  4. Pats726

    Pats726 Rookie

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    I agree...stole a pick..and Goodell?? sitting on his behind?? Why not investigating??? stealing picks from other teams..
  5. BradyManny

    BradyManny Rookie

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    If it wasn't already clear, it's becoming increasingly apparent that the theft first round draft pick has as much to do with the Patriots acquiring AD, Moss, Welker, more 1st round picks, etc., etc. as it did with "cheating". I am pretty convinced that Badell and the league saw an opportunity to "level the playing field" against a team they perceived as a continuing threat against the NFL's obsessive-compulsive desire to achieve parity.
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2007
  6. Bigdogx

    Bigdogx Rookie

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    Because the do-gooder is to busy kicking cheerleaders off the field at this time!
  7. Jacky Roberts

    Jacky Roberts Rookie

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    Goodell is an a-hole. Not condoning what the Patriots did, but its the NFL offices way of trying to create parity among the teams. I hope this idiot is consistent if a team gets caught doing this.
  8. upstater1

    upstater1 Rookie

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    I don't believe that. The NFL shows absolutely no interest in investigating. When the Dolphins cheated last year, the NFL said "That's football." They showed no interest. That's why I think no one will ever be caught cheating again.

    When Bob Costas asked Goodell how he planned to stop people from using high technology, such as hi powered binoculars equipped with videotaping, Goodell responded by saying that the Patriots did not use high-technology, but a simple videocamera out in the open.

    Translation: you can cheat. Just be discrete.
  9. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    It's funny, during the second half of the Jest game I said to my wife "imagine how the NFL feels to have the Patriots playing like this and then realize we have two #1s, a #2 and two #3s in next year's draft". Saying like that then realizing what happened is . . . spooky.

    We broke the rules and should have paid for it with a high second day pick, no more. We're too loaded and the NFL swooped in like a thief in the night.

    We can still have the last laugh, though, by winning it all then having a reasonably high #1 from SF. Where's the "middle finger" emoticon when you need it ? :rocker:
  10. Bigdogx

    Bigdogx Rookie

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    Pretty much spot on except substitute Badell with Napolian and you get the gold star!:D
  11. BradyManny

    BradyManny Rookie

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    I completely agree. I also think the sting of losing the #1 will lessen with time. As others have said, we can use that chunk of $$ elsewhere to help keep the team together.
  12. Nitro

    Nitro Rookie

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    #22 Jersey

    Cant argue with that, the picture of the guy everyone thought was the pats cameraman on the sideline was actually the jets camera man. but the jets couldn't afford to give up even a 7th rounder.. so lets just sweep that under the rug.
  13. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    See now this is the kind of investigative journalism lead that should just fascinate some grassy knoll ESPN clown like Easterbrook.

    "If you are a head coach and your job is in jeopardy, screw it," the offensive assistant said. "If you get two more wins, you save your job."

    The coach said he knew of one team that equipped its backup quarterback with a device that allowed the backup to feed information to the starter after the 15-second cutoff.

    The backup quarterback he cited is no longer in the league, and the head coach is working as an assistant. "

    Just off the top of my head the suspects could include Haslett, Sherman, Martz and Tice - yeah the guy who once head coached Daunte Fumblepepper to co MVP... And our old pal Saban had a pair of former HC's manning his OC and DC positions. Who backed up Drew when he lit up the first half of 2003? Who backed up Warner back in the Greatest Shows heyday and before they moved Bulger up? And Gibbs employs 5 coordinator level/Asst HC coaches three of whom are former NFL HC's. Lots of 'Skins former backups are no longer in the league... Antenna issues, yeah right. ;)
  14. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I am so tired of this I want to puke.

    You may have noticed that it was an in-game incident, in which evidence was available and obtained, which Goodell fined the Pats for, and took away our first round pick for.

    You may have noticed that the majority of fan sites elsewhere, and the majority of fans of other teams and media douchebags, all say that the 500K/250K/1st rounder punishment has been too lenient.

    Well which is it: Do we all know football (and ethics) so much better than the rest of the country, or are we at least as "pro-Patriots" as everybody else is "anti-patriots"?

    I do know this:

    A media report of a coach speaking on condition of anonymity is not a comparable evidentiary compilation, to a tape and a camera confiscated mid-game.

    Get over it.

    PFnV
  15. Pats726

    Pats726 Rookie

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    It's cheating isn't it?? And the league investigated claims of the PATRIOTS use of interference and high tech things...should this NOT interest the league?? Goodell claims he's all for honesty and a level playing field....OR is that just BS??? SO where is the commish??
  16. Pujo

    Pujo Rookie

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    No, PatsFanInVa is absolutely right, this is a bunch of sour grapes from people who think being a fan means losing objectivity. The NFL can't just go in and start subpoenaing teams' video materials and records simply based on hearsay, they league and the teams have a contractual relationship and I'll bet dollars to donuts it contains some language akin to probable cause. If they can't get physical materials, what the hell are they going to investigate? You think they're just going to ask and all the coaches will own up to it? To quote something, I don't remember what, it doesn't matter what you know, it matters what you can prove.

    With the Patriots, they were caught red-handed and deserved what they got - nothing more and nothing less. I would have been dissapointed if the league let them off with a slap on the wrist, not because I wanted us to lose our first round pick, but because it would have brought into question how serious the league is about enforcing its rules. Was the punishment the largest ever given by the league? Yup, but that's par for course with Goodell. He's stepping up the discipline as he's showed with his player suspensions, and while whether that's the wisest course of action is a good argument for another thread, it shows that it's not an anti-Patriots bias, it's a pro-strict-discipline bias.

    The Miami comparison makes no sense, there were no rules broken, stop beating that horse. I bet comments like the ones in this thread get reposted on other teams' forums to make fun of how "irrational Patriots fans are", etc. If it were the Colts who'd been busted, can anyone imagine saying, "Indy was robbed by the NFL, they don't deserve to lose that first round pick"?
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2007
  17. alamo

    alamo praedica numerum! PatsFans.com Supporter

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    One funny thing about the article at the top of this thread: it's author, Mike Sando, knows something about cheating controversies... it was his work that Ron Borges plagiarized.
  18. sodo

    sodo Rookie

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    Mangini is a stoolpigeon .
    What precipitated this hatred between Bill & The Stoolie ?
    I'm sure Mangini at this point is talking to himself alot .
    I can see him now in his rocking chair repeating " I'm the boss ... I'm the boss "
  19. Pats726

    Pats726 Rookie

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    Where is the loss of objectivity....it is Goodell's words about honesty and fair play that I am questioning...and I think very legitimately asking those questions of him....
    Firstly, is what was alleged fair play or honest?? If one thinks there is nothing wrong with that...so be it..BUT if that is something that is giving a team an advantage, is it NOT the Commish's obligation to investigate??
    If the answer is no..then..really I think his words are totally empty AND it is quite obvious 'fair play' is NOT a concern.
    I also think that MIGHT BE ODD for a Commish that has looked into sillier things AS an advantage. (I heard on EEI..I think Burton or Ordway said that one team had these high powered coolers for the sideline...and Goodell made sure if one side had those BOTH did. I tend to think THAT advantage is a bit smaller than NOT having that 15 sec shutoff.
    And obviously..it is NOT the same as what happened with the Patriots..as that was a complaint by a team and a team caught redhanded. Nonetheless,
    since this is alleged, I would HOPE that the Commish would look into it, possibly find a way to tell if teams ARE doing it...and spot check this throughout the season. The NFL controls the QB signals and such..and I AM SURE there is some technical way to check to see if teams are doing this.
    No, they can not grab teams's videos and NO ONE is saying that or suggesting that, but being proactive and looking at it IS what Goodell should be doing.
    Is it an advantge?? Is the Commish being dishonest if he does NOT look into it?? I think he is..IF that is an advantage..absolutely!!
    It's cheating right??
  20. BradyManny

    BradyManny Rookie

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    Don't be such a lackey. Think for yourself. Considering there was no precedence for the punishment the Pats were given, what do YOU think was an appropriate fine? Or do you just always go along with what the powers that be hand down?

    It raises the question, is it really fair to have a rule without a pre-determined penalty? Every rule, in a sense, has the ability to be broken if the breaker understands the consequences. I can speed if I'm willing to pay a fine. I can sell drugs if I'm willing to go to jail, etc. The Patriots were breaking a rule that they had NO IDEA the punishment would be, and no one in their right mind would ever think the punishment would be a first rounder, particularly in Belichick's mind, in which he was not breaking a rule, but bending one.

    Goodell pulled the 1st round pick-penalty straight out of his rear. You seriously seem to have no interest in even putting your own judgment or opinion onto whether the penalty was fair. That makes me honestly fear for your general outlook on life.
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2007
  21. Pujo

    Pujo Rookie

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    Come now, just because someone disagrees with your judgement and agrees with someone else's, doesn't mean they haven't thought about it.

    Obviously Goodell's tougher than Tags was. And the owners, who ultimately set league rules, are comfortable giving the commissioner leeway to decide appropriate punishment. You may think it was too harsh, too lenient, or just right, but there's no evidence of bias. We'll have to wait and see how he deals with with similar issues, issues that have a similar level of proof. I would say in the Patriots case there aggravating circumstances considering a warning had been sent out in the past year precicely about this behavior.

    I believe the Patriots got the same punishment the Colts would have gotten, and that's "fair enough" for me.
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2007
  22. zoostation

    zoostation Rookie

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    That fat penguin is a no good snitch!
  23. BradyManny

    BradyManny Rookie

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    He said it makes him want to "puke". I'd say it sounds like he's adverse to thinking critically about the situation...

    I strongly disagree. A major factor in Goodell's decision was public pressure - if it had been the Colts who had been caught, there would've been much, much less outrage and the actions would have been justified by the national media as Belichick's actions have by the fans here. As a result, Goodell would not have had to lay down the law as he did.

    The way I see it, the only people not caught up in the completely inane status quo, the witch hunt against BB, are the people in New England who have actually thought through the events more than on superficial terms such as "cheaters", "rules", etc.
  24. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Well I do know this:

    The punishment outstripped the actual offense, which we all saw thanks to Fox and which Goodell stated he believed was not used for gaining in game advantage. It was a freakin procedural rules infraction, only it was punished based on the hystrionics of mediots and jealous coaches and players former and present not to mention a few fans who have likely broken more than a few procedural rules of their own. Which histrionics included all manner of anonymous or unsubstantiated allegations for which at least one media whacko is still looking for further retribution.

    If this topic makes you want to puke, why don't you just stay away from it.
  25. Pujo

    Pujo Rookie

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    Maybe critical thinking's precicely what upsets his stomach? Or maybe it's the sight of fellow Patriots fans losing any shred of objectivity because they can't accept their team did something bad, at least that's what makes me sad. You know how on TV the murder defendant's mother always says "my son's innocent, he would have never done that". Well, they're not all innocent.

    There was a witch-hunt by the media, there's no question of that. But don't let that fool you into thinking that there wasn't, in fact, a serious infraction - there was.

    As an aside, and this isn't directed at you, the "no in game advantage" argument is pure BS. They sure did get an in-game advantage, just not "in-the-same-game". They didn't tape those signals so they'd know what to do if they ran into the New York Jets at the mall. This isn't a mortal sin, but it's a violation of the rules, and in the commissioner's opinion a serious one. The fans are questioning his objectivity? A carpenter once said something about a speck in your brother's eye.
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2007
  26. IndyDrummer

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  27. PatsFanInVa

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    Okay, Mo, I take it back. The topic is fun. The attitudes on the other side are just this side of incomprehensible to me; for others here: it's precisely the inability of my fellow Pats fans to remove their own bias when discussing this which nauseates me.

    I have no interest in discussing who is the "herd" (fellow Pats fans, or the national herd/media,) and who is the "critical thinker," unless said discussion goes beyond namecalling to a viewpoint remotely resembling one based in objective reality. There is such a thing, after all.

    Do this board's denizens believe that the same evidentiary standard is attained by quoting a media report from an un-named coach, as is attained via in-game confiscation of tape and camera?

    I suppose I am with the "herd" on this one. The "herd" seems to believe being caught red-handed is more compelling than hearsay and rumor.

    The "herd" says we got off too easy. The "mediots" say we got off too easy. Only Pats fans say they threw the book at us.

    The difference seems to be that Pats fans still do not believe we cheated. They want to draw artificial lines and split hairs. Obviously, weaker opponents want asterisks -- the Colts, for example, will have nothing to say after their one-and-done-not-a-run, other than "we did it fair and square, hey diddley ho, neighbor!" The Bolts had nothing to say except "if they ain't cheatin, they ain't tryin'..." until they came to Foxborough. The Steelers and Eagles and Panthers are all lining up for their rings for losing.

    That crap is the only thing uglier than our own local aversion to standing up, admitting it happened, we did it, and we need to move on.

    How does the topic come up? Usually just one more clown attempting to either make the topic go away via tortured analogy, or attempting to stretch the camera thing into the "reason" for the Patriots' supremacy.

    I do notice that in the last 2 weeks, success on the field has effectively stifled the "they only win by cheating" bullcrap. That is because it supplies evidence to the contrary of the theory that during the last 6 years, the edge in games came from this camera thing.

    ("It was like they were in our huddle"....) Um, news flash, it still is. Uh-ohhhh.

    Okay, so those a$$clowns are fading away. But what do we do in Patsland? Just keep on trying to make something ELSE the equivalent of the Pats/Goodell "conviction". Just keep on hating Goodell. Meanwhile, elsewhere they think Goodell cut a sweatheart deal with Kraft/BB.

    Am I the only one that sees how assinine this is? Basically Goodell, faced with a lot of hard evidence, after sending around a memo, acted in defense of his own office in this instance. He probably DOES view the infraction as major, but he ALSO knows he just got done addressing this exact behavior.

    It's like if I have 20 employees, and I say (irrationally,) "Everybody must break for lunch at 12:00 on the dot, no exceptions." I send a memo to all 20 reminding them of their lunch break time.

    One guy decides to work through lunch the next day, then break at 12:30 the day after that and get back to work at 12:45. Then the next day I walk right by him at 1, as he is walking out the door, proclaiming "I'M GOING TO LUNCH GUYS, I DON'T CARE WHAT THE BOSS SAYS!"

    It is immaterial that he isn't "bad" or "stealing," because he takes less company time. He is visibly and publicly flouting my directive.

    Even though it's a STUPID policy, blind to personal differences; and even though he at least is on the clock more than other guys (and we're going to just assume is motivated and productive,) and even though he will just plain skip lunch to work, and even though let's say there are "rumors" of some people that break from 12-1, even though it's supposed to be a half hour break -- even so, this guy is flouting his opposition to my authority.

    All the rumored "other" bad break behaviour is empowered if he is allowed to do so.

    WTF do you expect to happen in such a scenario?

    Get over the dire talk of how the punishment was too strong, that's my advice. Get over the bullcrap about the league "stealing" our first round pick. They docked it, for an offense they cited, and for which our brass took full responsibility. The facts are not in dispute. We broke the rules. We have accepted the consequences of losing a 1st rounder.

    Nobody but the fans are arguing this outcome. Nobody on the team talks about a "stolen" draft pick. They are out to prove on the field, every week, that their winning was about better coaching, play, and dedication than you find elsewhere.

    The team's not talking about the taping, because it happened. They're not talking much at all... but the attitude is, "you thought we were winning games because of that camera thing? You gotta be kiddin' me. THIS is why we win games..."

    And about this "Stolen" pick terminology? WE COMMITTED A PUNISHIBLE INFRACTION. THE LEAGUE PUNISHED US. The punishment was not outside the limits set on the commissioner's discretion, he made sure of that. So the punishment itself is a legal way to address an UNCONTESTED INFRACTION. THERE IS NO "STOLEN" DRAFT PICK... we were penalized a draft pick.

    Critical thinking indeed. Do the facts have any bearing on the homer perspective? It seems easily as impervious to factual comment as the perspective of "the media" and fans elsewhere.

    It might be instructive for Pats fans to understand that "the herd" does not just apply to large groups who disagree with you. It applies to large groups that agree with you as well.

    PFnV
  28. BradyManny

    BradyManny Rookie

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    WAS THE PUNISHMENT FAIR? Jesus Christ, if you weren't too busy getting off on the idea that you're somehow more objective than us "homers", maybe you could think for one f**king second on whether or not you think a punishment of a FIRST ROUND PICK was fair for a transgression that the commish himself had NO IMPACT ON THE GAME.

    You keep harping on the fact that it was an "in-game" violation. You know what else is an "in-game" violation? Holding. Pass interference. Late hits on the quarterback. And you know how these are penalized? With yardage. The Patriots simply broke another rule. Now, obviously, yardage isn't steep enough a price...so what is? Money. Sure? Suspensions? Maybe, even then you're taking it too far...Draft picks...not really, maybe if it's 2nd day picks, even then it seems to have very little logic.

    But to take a first rounder is beyond absurd. Imagine if Goodell said he was going to make the Pats choose between Maroney, Watson and Mankins and release one of them. Because that's essentially what he did.

    If this had been another team, there's no way a first round pick gets involved. Absolutely no way. He had the luxury of putting such a huge penalty on the Pats because we have gotten so good and because we had an extra first round pick. The penalty of the first rounder affects the Pats for FIVE TO TEN YEARS for something that, when we think critically about, is a relatively trivial transgression.

    Face the facts - the Pats were given a heavier penalty because of who they were.

    I'll take it a step further and say Goodell was sending us a message. We know how much they value parity and I'm sure Goodell was not happy to see us sign AD for less than market value, trade a fourth rounder for one of the best receivers ever, sign Stallworth for less than he could get, etc., etc. He saw that the Pats were getting players to come here for less because players want to play here - that goes against the NFL's idea of parity.

    That's what the first rounder is about - the Pats were penalized FAR more than any other team would have been for these reasons 1) they can afford the punishment more than other teams 2) they've been a threat to parity and of course, 3) because the witch hunt and public pressure forced Goodell to do so.
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2007
  29. TruthSeeker

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    Agreed, the punishment was fair only if seen in light of the Patriots actions being an affront to the NFL and the Commisioner (blatantly violating the rule immediately after being told in a memo not to). From that perspective, I don't have a problem with the penalty.

    As a response to what the Patriots could actually have gained via their illegal stealing of signals (as opposed to what they could have gained through legal stealing of signals), it was a ridiculously harsh penalty since any advantage would be quite minimal.

    I'm still confused by the many in the media who jumped all over this penalty as too light; many of them making a huge deal of the supposed advantage the Patriots were getting by the videotaping. I hope that as they look back at this issue in the coming years, they'll recognize the foolishness of their snap to judgment. I'm not convinced that they'll get it even then, however.
  30. Pujo

    Pujo Rookie

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    Is 15 yards a fair punishment for a personal foul? Is $50 a fair punishment for not paying the parking meter? I don't know, but that's what the rules say it is. In the case of a video infraction the commissioner has certain leeway defined by the league's constitution, and as long as he stays within those boundries, the punishment is assumed to be fair. Otherwise, if the punishment is consistent, and within the league's bylaws, it's HIS DISCRETION.
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