Offensive Pass Interference and the Tuck Rule

[mgteich]

I see no difference. The rules were enforced in both cases. No, Stevens didn't need to push off in order to score, but that doesn't change the rule, which isn't based on whether the ball is caught or not. The ref was close to the play. He saw the clear infraction and he threw the flag. He had no choice under the rules currently in place.

What thousands of posts have now said is that the ref in this case should have ignored the rules of the NFL, and not called a clear penalty because a score was involved. Such an action by a ref might get applause from the fans of one team, but the ref would and should get discplined if he ignored the violation.

 

[dryheat44]

The issue is that relative to what goes on during every pass play, that was a minor foul. So minor that I don't even think it qualified as a penalty. I saw the WR put a hand on the defender, but not push himself off of him. The referee was also in perfect position to see Hope holding Jackson, but that was ignored.

Nobody (I don't think) is suggesting the referee's ignore the rulebook. The issue is calling the game consistently for both teams.

 

[Na_polian]

I see no difference. The rules were enforced in both cases. No, Stevens didn't need to push off in order to score, but that doesn't change the rule, which isn't based on whether the ball is caught or not. The ref was close to the play. He saw the clear infraction and he threw the flag. He had no choice under the rules currently in place.

What thousands of posts have now said is that the ref in this case should have ignored the rules of the NFL, and not called a clear penalty because a score was involved. Such an action by a ref might get applause from the fans of one team, but the ref would and should get discplined if he ignored the violation.

Well, I believe the Seahawks player when he says "I didn't touch him". He didn't, and he didn't do a "push off".

Just like I believe Big ben when he said "I don't think I was in...".

See? I'm fair.

 

[mgteich]

Exactly right! You believe the players involved rather the refs and the physical evidence. That is your right.

Well, I believe the Seahawks player when he says "I didn't touch him". He didn't, and he didn't do a "push off".

Just like I believe Big ben when he said "I don't think I was in...".

See? I'm fair.

 

[Na_polian]

Exactly right! You believe the players involved rather the refs and the physical evidence. That is your right.

There is physical evidence that the receiver pushed the defender? Wow. I'd love to see that. Looked to me like he moved his hand towards him, but didn't actually connect. But hey, I could be wrong.

I'd love to see the physical evidence, though. Got a Steelers jersey with a bloody handprint from the receiver on it? Who's blood is it? Should we check for DNA? How about hair analysis? Get the CSI guys on this pronto! We've got PHYSICAL EVIDENCE! Yeaaaah!

 

[mgteich]

I know that you or I might not want such infractions to be called. You indicated that you don't think it qualified as a penalty. Who do you think should decide whether this infraction counts as a penalty under NFL rules? What others are saying is that the fans know much better than the ref and the league. After all, they saw the infraction on television and the Seattle player says that he wasn't guilty of a foul. Now, if we could get every call against our db's in the past reversed because we fans didn't think it was a foul, and the player didn't, then we would have won five Super Bowls in a row.

The issue is that relative to what goes on during every pass play, that was a minor foul. So minor that I don't even think it qualified as a penalty. I saw the WR put a hand on the defender, but not push himself off of him. The referee was also in perfect position to see Hope holding Jackson, but that was ignored.

Nobody (I don't think) is suggesting the referee's ignore the rulebook. The issue is calling the game consistently for both teams.

 

[Na_polian]

Exactly right! You believe the players involved rather the refs and the physical evidence. That is your right.

And just as an aside, if an NFL referee today told me it was raining outside, I'd have to look for myself, because quite frankly I think their credibility is shot almost beyond any repair at this point...

 

[mgteich]

That too is your right.

And just as an aside, if an NFL referee today told me it was raining outside, I'd have to look for myself, because quite frankly I think their credibility is shot almost beyond any repair at this point...

 

[AdamJT13]

There is physical evidence that the receiver pushed the defender? Wow. I'd love to see that. Looked to me like he moved his hand towards him, but didn't actually connect. But hey, I could be wrong.

http://www.seas.upenn.edu/~dmstein/steelers/PushOff.mov

Jackson clearly shoves Hope before going to make the catch. (Watch Hope hop backward after Jackson shoves him.)

 

[Murphys95]

The biggest problems with officiating in 2005 was the lack of consistency and decisiveness. Penalties were not called consistently throughout the season, and even in the Super Bowl (see: Hasselbeck's personal foul vs Roethlisberger's block on the WR Pass).

We at the very least expect officials to be consistent within a game. In XL the refs called a ticky-tack offensive PI (I agree, it was there, no problem with it), but ignored an overt horse-collar tackle later in the game.

That has to be a major focus during the offseason - consistency. Perhaps doing away with "all-star" crews may be a first step.

 

[Na_polian]

http://www.seas.upenn.edu/~dmstein/steelers/PushOff.mov

Jackson clearly shoves Hope before going to make the catch. (Watch Hope hop backward after Jackson shoves him.)

Are you sure? Cuz it looked to me like when Jackson put his hand tawards him (they'd been "hand fighting" for a while) and then moved in the opposite direction, Hope tried to go after him and moved backwards to get more momentum when he was going to follow, but again, I could be wrong. But, that's what it looked like to me. Of course, I only saw the play from a few angles that DIDN'T show contact...

 

[sarge]

The biggest problem I have with this call is in this picture I attached.

I attached it because everyone seems to turn a complete blind I to it when defending the call.

If people want to say that it was technically the correct call, I can go with that. I didn't personally think there was enough there to warrant the call but fine.

But if you believe that was enough to warrant a flag, should those penalties have not been offsetting?

What happened to the new emphasis? I know we have seen it here first hand. And so has anybody who plays the Colts.

You can't say the ref didn't see it. It would not have been possible for him to have seen the pushoff yet not seen the illegal contact.

Just be consistent. They are not going to catch everything. They are human. But if you are going to be ticky tack on one team, just be sure to be ticky tack on both!

 

[JoeSixPat]

Forgive me if someone has said this but

The tuck rule was and is reviewable. And a review of Brady's tuck showed that it was without quesiton, the right call.

Pass intereference never was and is not reviewable.

A ref could make the worst call in the world, clearly wrong for all to see in a replay, and it would still stand even if it decided the game and gave the Lombardi trophy to the wrong team.

That's a VERY big difference in comparing the two

 

[dryheat44]

What others are saying is that the fans know much better than the ref and the league.

No, I'm not saying the fans know better than the Refs, it's that the Refs, for whatever reason, are not making calls correctly. If the officials are instructed to tilt the field towards one team or the other, as I believe they are, what kind of defense is it to suggest that the refs know what is and isn't a foul better than I do? Of course they do. That's not the point.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

The biggest problem I have with this call is in this picture I attached.

I attached it because everyone seems to turn a complete blind I to it when defending the call.

If people want to say that it was technically the correct call, I can go with that. I didn't personally think there was enough there to warrant the call but fine.

But if you believe that was enough to warrant a flag, should those penalties have not been offsetting?

What happened to the new emphasis? I know we have seen it here first hand. And so has anybody who plays the Colts.

You can't say the ref didn't see it. It would not have been possible for him to have seen the pushoff yet not seen the illegal contact.

Just be consistent. They are not going to catch everything. They are human. But if you are going to be ticky tack on one team, just be sure to be ticky tack on both!

Exactly. The reason this is ticky tack is because there were at best offsetting fouls and he was apparently letting the defensive one go. The right call in that case is no call because the defensive inteference should have been called first (the Steeler defender was clearly holding the receiver as he attempted to cross into the endzone, and it appears he may have held again (top of shirt neck high) as they faced each other. I have a feeling what some see as the push off is actually the defender attempting to do an exageraged release move (of Jackson's already straight stiff-arm) anticipating he was about to be flagged (which move also set him up to plead for the pushoff).

What Adam characterizes as a "hop" backward is just that, the defender trying to clear a receiver he didn't think was in position to catch the ball but one whom he certainly might have been called for holding. The defender has two alternatives there - let him go and hope he doesn't catch it, let him go and if he does cry push off, or keep holding him and watch the refs place the ball on the 1 for defensive PI.

 

[BelichickFan]

I just watched that clip and I don't think he pushed off. He did stick his arm out, maybe even trying to push off, but to me any contact was incidental, grazing and irrelevant to the play.

 

[AdamJT13]

The biggest problem I have with this call is in this picture I attached.

I attached it because everyone seems to turn a complete blind I to it when defending the call.

If people want to say that it was technically the correct call, I can go with that. I didn't personally think there was enough there to warrant the call but fine.

But if you believe that was enough to warrant a flag, should those penalties have not been offsetting?

What happened to the new emphasis? I know we have seen it here first hand. And so has anybody who plays the Colts.

You can't say the ref didn't see it. It would not have been possible for him to have seen the pushoff yet not seen the illegal contact.

Just be consistent. They are not going to catch everything. They are human. But if you are going to be ticky tack on one team, just be sure to be ticky tack on both!

Mere contact with the hands is not enough to be "illegal contact." The question is whether Hope "significantly impeded" Jackson and created a "distinct advantage." You'd be hard-pressed to argue that it did. Hence, there is no illegal contact.

Jackson's shove, on the other hand, is obvious.

 

[BelichickFan]

Mere contact with the hands is not enough to be "illegal contact." The question is whether Hope "significantly impeded" Jackson and created a "distinct advantage." You'd be hard-pressed to argue that it did. Hence, there is no illegal contact.

Jackson's shove, on the other hand, is obvious.

I guess we see it differently because I see no distinct advantage from Jackson's contact.

 

[AdamJT13]

I guess we see it differently because I see no distinct advantage from Jackson's contact.

Jackson used his arm to push off and create separation. By definition, that's offensive pass interference.

 

[DaBruinz]

I see no difference. The rules were enforced in both cases. No, Stevens didn't need to push off in order to score, but that doesn't change the rule, which isn't based on whether the ball is caught or not. The ref was close to the play. He saw the clear infraction and he threw the flag. He had no choice under the rules currently in place.

What thousands of posts have now said is that the ref in this case should have ignored the rules of the NFL, and not called a clear penalty because a score was involved. Such an action by a ref might get applause from the fans of one team, but the ref would and should get discplined if he ignored the violation.

MG -

If they were going to call the the "pass interference" on Jackson (it wasn't Stevens), then they should have called the DEFENSIVE pass interference when Hope put his hands on Jackson as they entered the endzone. In fact, Hope putting his hands on Jackson did cause Jackson to change his route as well.

So, the ref DID in fact, IGNORE a clear violation. The Problem is that it was in favor of Pittsburgh. Also, MG, the problem with the call is that they didn't reciprocate later and call Ward when he TWICE did the same thing.