Offense needs to stop playing fantasy football every week

[BradyFTW!]

The team ypc is 4, which is a good figure.

Explain how 22nd in the league is good. For the record, our running game was bad in 2003, so I dunno why you're holding it up to that.

 

[Satchboogie3]

Maybe I haven't been clear, but my point is that this team CAN and HAS succeeded offensively when Moss or Welker have been shut-down. There is a difference between correlation and causation. Just because Moss or Welker get shutdown and we have a bad offensive game DOES NOT MEAN that it's BECAUSE of them getting shut down.

Prior to this season, we NEVER had trouble when Moss or Welker got shut down, someone else stepped up. The problem this season, as you have agreed with me, is the play calling, Brady coming back from injury, receiver changes, and the O-line.

What I am saying is that the problem STARTS with the O-line. If the defense has our passing game shut down, we need to establish a running game. The problem is that if the O-line is sucking, we won't be able to run block. You can't run if you don't have anywhere to go. The problems we are having right now have nothing to do with Moss or Welker. The problem is the O-line. As for last game, I don't think any adjustments or "better" play calling would have helped. When your O-line can't block a 3 man rush, you have no chance. They were blowing up our screens and slants and putting a ton of pressure on Brady, not allowing him time to find guys deep. The running game was working early, but it was Brady that threw that pick that lead to a Saints TD. After our defense let the Saints get an early 14 point lead we were screwed having to play catchup.

This team CAN succeed with our TEs, 3rd/4th receivers, and running game, but ONLY if the O-line can get healthy and block better. It all starts with the O-line.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Re: Pats Will Win Next Ring When It Has No Offensive Fantasy Studs

The run blocking in general has been good all season, the running game was doing well earlier when Fred Taylor or Sammy Morris were in there.

If the run blocking has been good all season, then why are we 22nd in YPC (a stat that you insisted on trotting out, btw)?

Maroney is starting to really pick up his game, but he was constantly running into his own blockers especially earlier in the season. That isn't the O-line's fault if Maroney keeps running into his own people

When I said that Maroney was getting yards in spite of his blockers, you agreed with me. Now you're saying that the blockers are doing well in spite of Maroney's output. You couldn't more thoroughly contradict yourself if you tried.

 

[maverick4]

Prior to this season, we NEVER had trouble when Moss or Welker got shut down, someone else stepped up. The problem this season, as you have agreed with me, is the play calling, Brady coming back from injury, receiver changes, and the O-line.
This team CAN succeed with our TEs, 3rd/4th receivers, and running game, but ONLY if the O-line can get healthy and block better. It all starts with the O-line.

Here we go, sounds a lot like throwing the O-line under the bus from the 07 Bowl. The talent on the O-line is very, very good. Ask anyone outside of New England. You can't keep blaming the O-line for what are obviously scheme and play-calling issues. The Saints D-line isn't elite, and they weren't even playing 3 secondary starters, yet they still made the O-line look porous. It is because of play calling. We pass an astounding 75% of the time out of shotgun this year. The opposing DE's and LB's can pass rush better, the corners and safeties can cover better, if they don't even have to respect or look for what is happening in the backfield.


If you insist that it's not coordinator related...Have you seen the 1st half/2nd half stats of this team this year?

The first half stats are indicative of what this team's talent can do when put in position to succeed, and is more indicative of Belichick's pre-game input than anything else, based on the pre-game scouting and identifying how to initially play against an opponent.

The coordinators call the actual in-game plays and the longer the game goes on, their influence upon how the team performs increases.

 

[Satchboogie3]

I think our rushing stats are seriously skewed by a few giant games against terrible rush defenses. If you take out the games against the Bucs and Titans, the rushing Y/C drops below 3.8. If you also take out the Atlanta game (ranked 20th in rush defense), it drops below 3.7 Y/C. Take out the Saints game (ranked 22nd in rush defense) and it drops to 3.5 Y/C. We have face 4 teams that have the worst (bottom 10) rush defenses in the league plus an additional game played against a terrible defense in a snowstorm blowout.

The Pats played 4 games against top ten rush defenses (NYJ x2, Ravens, Broncos). In those 4 games, we averaged under 3.2 Y/C. In relative terms, the Jets and Ravens are giving up 3.9 Y/C and the Ravens 3.5. Our 3.2 Y/C against them is WELL below average.

 

[maverick4]

Re: Pats Will Win Next Ring When It Has No Offensive Fantasy Studs

When I said that Maroney was getting yards in spite of his blockers, you agreed with me. Now you're saying that the blockers are doing well in spite of Maroney's output. You couldn't more thoroughly contradict yourself if you tried.

It's funny how you keep twisting words in order for some pathetic lame contradiction attack.

I agreed that the O-line probably helps Maroney just as much as he is hurt by it (by his own lack of vision). The guy routinely ran into his own blockers, not the O-line's fault. We have also seen that this team can run with Taylor and Morris.

The biggest problem with the stat whores is the inability to think or reason. They see that we score 27ppg, automatically assume this offense is good and the current coordinator is good. They see 4.0 ypc, automatically assume the O-line is bad.

 

[maverick4]

I think our rushing stats are seriously skewed by a few giant games against terrible rush defenses. If you take out the games against the Bucs and Titans, the rushing Y/C drops below 3.8.

If you take out the Bucs and Titans games, the ENTIRE Pats offense looks even more pathetic than the misleading numbers suggest.

 

[Satchboogie3]

If you take out the Bucs and Titans games, the ENTIRE Pats offense looks even more pathetic than the misleading numbers suggest.

I don't disagree with that. I agree that play calling is an issue, however, it will only help to fix the O-line problems. As for the Saints game, I really don't think there was anything they could do. Sure, they could have run the ball more, but you aren't going to win a shootout by running the ball for 4-5 yard chunks. Belichick new it was becoming a shootout and he would need his passing game to keep up with Brees. Short of running the ball, there was nothing they could do to fix the O-line in the 2nd half. When 3 linebackers are consistently beating 6 blockers, it isn't the scheme that's the problem, it's the players. Now, I'm not saying our O-line is terrible, they are just very thin right now with all of the injuries.

I think it's going to be a combination of Brady getting better, the O-line getting healthy and improving, and better play-calling that will make this offense better. The game plan should always be to get the ball to the play-makers (Moss, Welker) and look to your other options if you can't. However, if this defense continues to give up a lot of points, we may have no choice but to pass-pass-pass to win shootouts.

 

[DaBruinz]

I never look at YPC as a whole. I always look at YPC of the RBs. The reason being is that Brady runs so many 1 yard QB sneaks.

The 5 rbs have the following:
Maroney- 131 carries - 519 yard - 3.96 YPC
Morris - 35 caries - 127 yards -
Taylor - 45 carries - 201 yards -
BJGE - 22 carries - 92 yards
Faulk - 42 carries - 214 yards

Totals: 275 carries - 1153 yards - 4.2 YPC

That is OK, but not spectacular.

One of the BIGGEST qualms that people have had this year has been the wildly inconsistent run blocking. To the point where BB called out the O-line about it. So, anyone saying that the run blocking has been good is smoking cheap stuff.

 

[maverick4]

I don't disagree with that. I agree that play calling is an issue, however, it will only help to fix the O-line problems. As for the Saints game, I really don't think there was anything they could do. Sure, they could have run the ball more, but you aren't going to win a shootout by running the ball for 4-5 yard chunks.

I think it's going to be a combination of Brady getting better, the O-line getting healthy and improving, and better play-calling that will make this offense better. The game plan should always be to get the ball to the play-makers (Moss, Welker) and look to your other options if you can't. .

I agree with some of this.

I strongly disagree that there was nothing the Pats could do against the Saints, as you said. It sounds like the same, lame and wrong statements that there was nothing we could do to stop the Giants in 07.

The hits on Brady and passing problems, are not due to lack of O-line talent. Repeatedly using shotgun in a spread, makes is so easy for an opposing defense's pass D and pass rush to improve. They don't have to protect any run gaps, don't have to see the backfield, just focus purely on rushing the passer or covering the receiver. People tried to make the 'we could do nothing' excuse against the Giants and the Giants did have talent on the D-line, but you can't pull this for the Saints. The Saints D-line is weak and their secondary was full of crappy or new players. One guy starting signed just a week before and hadn't played for a year.

We lost because we insisted on winning by forcing the ball to Welker and Moss, and lost because these guys couldn't get it done against a D that knew exactly what we were trying to do. Stubbornly forcing the ball to your 'playmakers' is why this team can't manufacture a win when these guys can't perform. Also, this game was 24-17 at one point, no need for the urgency and completely abandoning even the threat of a run.

 

[The Intimidator]

Re: Pats Will Win Next Ring When It Has No Elite Offensive Fantasy Players

By elite I mean a fantasy stud. Those players you listed are all good/great, and it's important to have an offense where you can beat a team multiple different ways. I'm not saying not to have elite talent, obviously you need it. I'm not saying to not have or use Brady/Moss/Welker, but we use them repeatedly so much to the point that the offense can't do anything when teams figure them out. Case in point, the last game a mediocre Saints secondary completely stuffed Welker and Moss.

Do you watch the games? Yeah Moss and Welker have been absolutely horrendous for this team. One has set the NFL record for most touchdowns in a single season and the other has set patriots records for catches in a season. Throughout the past few seasons we have had a inconsistent running game at best, so it was really not an option to run the ball. We had a running back who averaged 3.3 yards a carry last season, and a tight end who has one or two games a year then vanishes without a trace.

The O-Line is a whole lot better at pass blocking, then run blocking to the point where they have been called out for it by the coaches and the front office. So what is Brady supposed to do? Hand it off to Mr. Dance A lot or use his top 2 weapons, who are top 10-15 white outs in the league. This what we have right now.

Come on man.

 

[The Intimidator]

Here we go, sounds a lot like throwing the O-line under the bus from the 07 Bowl. The talent on the O-line is very, very good. Ask anyone outside of New England. You can't keep blaming the O-line for what are obviously scheme and play-calling issues. The Saints D-line isn't elite, and they weren't even playing 3 secondary starters, yet they still made the O-line look porous. It is because of play calling. We pass an astounding 75% of the time out of shotgun this year. The opposing DE's and LB's can pass rush better, the corners and safeties can cover better, if they don't even have to respect or look for what is happening in the backfield.


If you insist that it's not coordinator related...Have you seen the 1st half/2nd half stats of this team this year?

The first half stats are indicative of what this team's talent can do when put in position to succeed, and is more indicative of Belichick's pre-game input than anything else, based on the pre-game scouting and identifying how to initially play against an opponent.

The coordinators call the actual in-game plays and the longer the game goes on, their influence upon how the team performs increases.

The offensive line was horrendous in that game. Did you watch that game? There was nothing that Charlie Weis or frankly Jesus couldn't have done that night. The talent on the O-Line is so so I believe right now with Matt Light being older and less affective, and Kaczur being as awful as he has been.

With that being said, the o-line has given up a grand total of 16 sacks 4th in the league though have allowed a lot of hits and hurry's.

So the sack number is very misleading for what you see with the naked eye.

I agree this has something to do with play calling, but there is so much a coordinators can do here.

 

[ausbacker]

Satch thanks for looking it up and trying to make a genuine sincere argument. But, you didn't really give any good reason to dispel that our 2nd half choke jobs in 4 games now, aren't due to play calls and the coordinator. In fact you even write that we lost a game because of play calling and no adjustments.

Here we go, sounds a lot like throwing the O-line under the bus from the 07 Bowl. The talent on the O-line is very, very good. Ask anyone outside of New England. You can't keep blaming the O-line for what are obviously scheme and play-calling issues. The Saints D-line isn't elite, and they weren't even playing 3 secondary starters, yet they still made the O-line look porous. It is because of play calling. We pass an astounding 75% of the time out of shotgun this year. The opposing DE's and LB's can pass rush better, the corners and safeties can cover better, if they don't even have to respect or look for what is happening in the backfield.


If you insist that it's not coordinator related...Have you seen the 1st half/2nd half stats of this team this year?

The first half stats are indicative of what this team's talent can do when put in position to succeed, and is more indicative of Belichick's pre-game input than anything else, based on the pre-game scouting and identifying how to initially play against an opponent.

The coordinators call the actual in-game plays and the longer the game goes on, their influence upon how the team performs increases.

Are you really this naive?

 

[Satchboogie3]

I agree with some of this.

I strongly disagree that there was nothing the Pats could do against the Saints, as you said. It sounds like the same, lame and wrong statements that there was nothing we could do to stop the Giants in 07.

The hits on Brady and passing problems, are not due to lack of O-line talent. Repeatedly using shotgun in a spread, makes is so easy for an opposing defense's pass D and pass rush to improve. They don't have to protect any run gaps, don't have to see the backfield, just focus purely on rushing the passer or covering the receiver. People tried to make the 'we could do nothing' excuse against the Giants and the Giants did have talent on the D-line, but you can't pull this for the Saints. The Saints D-line is weak and their secondary was full of crappy or new players. One guy starting signed just a week before and hadn't played for a year.

We lost because we insisted on winning by forcing the ball to Welker and Moss, and lost because these guys couldn't get it done against a D that knew exactly what we were trying to do. Stubbornly forcing the ball to your 'playmakers' is why this team can't manufacture a win when these guys can't perform. Also, this game was 24-17 at one point, no need for the urgency and completely abandoning even the threat of a run.

The problem I have with this is that it wasn't the scheming that is the problem. When you go shotgun with 5+ Blockers, you should be able to block up to 5 guys. They couldn't even block 3. If they went to a power formation with 1-2 WRs, it might have been even worse. It would have been 1-3 receivers vs 7-8 DBs. They had enough blocking, they just couldn't block anyone.

Second, Brady wasn't "forcing" the ball to Moss and Welker. Moss had a couple of catches, but for the most part wasn't open, so Brady look to Welker. Welker got open short, but couldn't get any YAC because of the 7-8 guys in coverage. Brady threw a lot to Aiken (had almost 80 yards), who would have gone over 100 yards and scored a TD had Brady not overthrown him deep. Moss and Welker had a total of 9 receptions, while everyone one else had 14 (Aiken, Maroney, Faulk, and Watson). The problem was he never had time to let the plays develop. It is the fact that we got behind by 14-21 points that forced the offense to become one dimensional. We didn't have time to run the ball, we needed a lot of points, fast.

 

[maverick4]

The offensive line was horrendous in that game. Did you watch that game? There was nothing that Charlie Weis or frankly Jesus couldn't have done that night. The talent on the O-Line is so so I believe right now with Matt Light being older and less affective, and Kaczur being as awful as he has been.

Really? The Pats couldn't have done ANYTHING differently? The O-line was so bad and there was no way to stop the Saints D? Sounds so much like the same lame crappy excuses after the 07 Giants bowl.

What is funny is that in the very next post you admit that this O-line is 4th in the league in giving up the fewest sacks.

It's not even that the Saints have a great defense. Their secondary was a bunch of crappy guys, and their D-line is horrible. Look at their points-against, they are in the bottom third to middle in the league.

This just goes to show that when a D-lineman doesn't have to respect run gaps AT ALL, it's easier to make moves and get to the QB.

If you really think it's just about lack of talent and not because of predictable stubborn shotgun passing calls, then how do you explain the 2003 Superbowl? That ragtag group of O-line retreads gave up 0 sacks against the best D-line (Panthers) in football.

 

[maverick4]

The problem I have with this is that it wasn't the scheming that is the problem. When you go shotgun with 5+ Blockers, you should be able to block up to 5 guys.

If they went to a power formation with 1-2 WRs, it might have been even worse. It would have been 1-3 receivers vs 7-8 DBs. .

I don't buy this. Think about what happens when you blitz. A blitz naturally gives you a better pass rush, even if you only bring 5, simply because you aren't even looking to defend the run (which is its weakness, that you could get burned by not protecting the gaps).

Whenever we are in shot gun, the opposing defense is basically blitzing, even if it's with only 4 or 5 guys. An average D-lineman is much faster than most O-linemen, it's no contest when the D-lineman can just sprint and use whatever moves and not worry about his space/gap.

If we went to a power formation against 8 DB's as you suggested, we would have had 300 yards rushing. Instead we reverted to the same style we try to force every game we play.

Think about why the Saints put Brees so much under center. It's because it gives him the advantage of forcing the D to respect the run, and to mind their run gaps first, and for corners to have to see what the backfield is doing.

 

[Satchboogie3]

If we went to a power formation against 8 DB's as you suggested, we would have had 300 yards rushing. Instead we reverted to the same style we try to force every game we play.

How do you win a shootout by just running the ball? Maroney's longest run this year is what, 22 yards? There was no way we would be able to put up enough points quickly by running the ball.

As for the passrush, yes, 5 guys should be able to block up to 5 pass-rushing linebackers. When is the last time you saw an O-line get so badly abused by so few pass-rushers?

Finally, as the other poster pointed out, our sacks allowed total is DECEPTIVE. Brady only got sacked once last night, but would you claim they did a good job? No. Brady was running around like a wild man trying to avoid getting sacked. There are QBs that are extremely good at avoiding pressure and have a quick release or throw the ball away (Brady, Manning, Brees, etc) and there are those who aren't (Big Ben). You don't rate an O-line based on sacks, you rate them based on their blocking ability.

 

[The Intimidator]

Really? The Pats couldn't have done ANYTHING differently? The O-line was so bad and there was no way to stop the Saints D? Sounds so much like the same lame crappy excuses after the 07 Giants bowl.

What is funny is that in the very next post you admit that this O-line is 4th in the league in giving up the fewest sacks.

It's not even that the Saints have a great defense. Their secondary was a bunch of crappy guys, and their D-line is horrible. Look at their points-against, they are in the bottom third to middle in the league.

This just goes to show that when a D-lineman doesn't have to respect run gaps AT ALL, it's easier to make moves and get to the QB.

If you really think it's just about lack of talent and not because of predictable stubborn shotgun passing calls, then how do you explain the 2003 Superbowl? That ragtag group of O-line retreads gave up 0 sacks against the best D-line (Panthers) in football.

What? It was a different O-Line back again. The starting offensive line was:

Damien Woody LG

Matt Light LT

Dan Koppen C

Joe Andruzzi RG

Tom Ashworth: RT

Damien Woody was a pro bowler Guard in 2002. Tom Ashworth was a very good RT. Now they have been replaced with a guy who is a candidate to be cut in Nick Kaczur and now a older Matt Light. This is why they shut Peppers and company down.

So this is like comparing apples to oranges.

The Saints played a great game, it happens.

 

[maverick4]

Re: Pats Will Win Next Ring When It Has No Elite Offensive Fantasy Players

Do you watch the games? Yeah Moss and Welker have been absolutely horrendous for this team. .

When did anyone ever insinuate they didn't want Moss or Welker?

The point, which flew right over your head, was that this team is so over-reliant on getting the ball to these guys, that it can't win a game if the D stops these guys.

 

[maverick4]

How do you win a shootout by just running the ball? Maroney's longest run this year is what, 22 yards? There was no way we would be able to put up enough points quickly by running the ball.

As for the passrush, yes, 5 guys should be able to block up to 5 pass-rushing linebackers. When is the last time you saw an O-line get so badly abused by so few pass-rushers?

1. When it was 24-17 very early in the 3rd quarter, we could have slowed the game down. The Saints could not stop our running game. Instead we blew it by not having patience. The game got out of hand shortly after.

2. The last time we saw this happen was the 07 Giants game, and the same excuses are given now, which are all bogus.

3. 5 blockers can safely protect a QB from 4 D-linemen, when the QB is under center and has the threat of a run. This is the standard line-up usually. 5 O-linemen can't consistently block against what are essentially 5 BLITZERS, especially when we try to pass it so much and so transparently.