Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by ctpatsfan77, Aug 2, 2009.
O'Connell not bitter about Lemon
O'Connell was an int machine in college, and that doesn't seem to have changed dramatically yet after one year in Belichick's system. He threw into triple coverage yesterday or the day before.
I wouldn't say he was an interception machine in college. In fact, considering he never played for a good team, he did pretty well. I don't have his career stats, but he threw more TD's than INT's, while running for his life most of his career. Let's just say, he threw way more TD's in his college career thn Cassell did, is bigger, stronger, faster,and has a stronger arm than Cassell, so I say let's cut him some slack. Only his second year, let's watch him in game situations before we get down on him. The only time I saw him play was in preseason, and he thew a perfect touch TD pass to Chad Jackson against the Giants. I was impressed, let se if there is massive improvement from year one to year two.
That and, as some of our posters pointed out:
I compared O'Connell's college stats to that of Jay cutler who also played at a poor program for an apples to apples comparison...
Oâ€™Connell in ollege SDSU 664/1151 57.7% 7689 yds 46 td/34 int 121.1 rating 395 rushes 1312 yds 3.3 ypa
1 int per 33.8 attempts
Jay Cutler in college at Vandy
710/1242 57.1% 8697 yds 59/36 453 rushes 1256 yds 2.8 ypa
[FONT="]1 int per 34.5 attempts[/FONT]
Not sure if you want to compare O'Connell to Cutler in terms of decision making.
Cutler makes poor decisions.
Even in his breakout year last year, Cutler threw 18 interceptions (against 25 TD's).
You claimed that O'Connell was 'an Int machine" and showed that relative to Cutler or even Sanchez and Stafford, his int/attempt were comparable....with much worse talent around him..
Stafford 33 ints in 987 attempts 1 per 29.9 attempts
[FONT="]Sanchez 16 ints in 487 attempts 1 per 30.4 attempts[/FONT]
Well at least he's improving under center. Lets give O'Connell a couple more weeks to prove himself. If he doesnt pick up then we can we resort to what we always do post "O'Connell Sucks" threads
Prediction: K O'C will become a football God! You heard it here first!
Hey Mav, Just admit you got caught making a blanket UNSUBSTANTIATED statement that was just wrong. Hey we've all done it at one time or another.
PFKen, it's not unsubstantiated. I wrote about this guy a half year ago:
Look at KO's college stats, read his draft scouting reports, go back and look at posts/threads here from visiting San Diego fan posters who saw him play.
I'm sure he'll improve with coaching, and with better talent around him as well, but most professional and informal reports say he is raw, forces throws, and makes risky plays.
Wouldn't that make 5 QBs at the moment? Brady, KoC, Gutierez, Hoyer, and Lemon.
As far as backups go I'd feel a lot more comfortable with Troy Brown on the roster, he could play several positions including long snapper, and was the 4th string QB for a while.
Bring back Troy Brown!
Here's another report I just found off a quick search:
Who the hell will they draft 2008: San Diego State QB KevinO'Connell - Stampede Blue
Again, the same themes of being raw, bad mechanics/feet, forcing throws, etc.
He obviously has a lot of potential and BB thought enough of him to use a 3rd, but let's be realistic about where he is right now. Even just a few days ago someone here with a training camp report pointed out how O'Connell threw into triple coverage and was picked off.
That describes most quarterbacks coming into the NFL. They are all raw, having never facing NFL defenses, they get happy feet in the beginning and make bad decisions. The good ones learn and mature, the others go on to play for the Raiders and Bengals.......
you called him an "interception machine" and I showed that he wasn't relative to other QBs in the draft, but rather comparable.
I understand what you meant and were trying to show. But you were comparing him to QB's who in all likelihood aren't going to be good QB's who make good decisions with the ball...
It took Brady one year to learn it, Cassel 4 years to learn it, and both produced similar numbers when they played. Belichick's QB school works, but unless O'Connell is as rare/driven as Brady, it'll take much more than one season on the bench before he's ready.
But yes, I regret labeling him an interception machine. He's merely extremely raw and makes many risky throws.
Something led BB to dial up Lemon in the early stages of camp. Maybe that will be enough to kick start KOC's year two progression to the level BB needs to be comfortable with him as a #2 absent more than Gutz behind him. Maybe not. Entering year 2 BB was comfortable enough with Cassel to have no backup for the first 8 games (although he had Vinny in for camp to get familiar with the system) and to have no veteran backup (signed UDFA Gutierrez) in year 3.
KOC is a unique situation for a BB team as he got the #2 designation way early purely by default when Brady went down. He's got all the physical tools, but so do lots of guys. It's time to see if he has the intangibles necessary to truly succeed, particularly in this system. He was certainly a leader in college, but it was at a level where his weapons and his competition were not elite. Mechanics, decision making, poise under pressure at the NFL level are what he needs to show he's developing now entering year 2. Brady had earned that slot by this point in 2001 (and possibly even earned consideration for the #1 slot although given the contractual situation he wasn't going to be allowed to perform as such until or unless something happened to force the issue.
KOC isn't in jeopardy of losing his job. But Gutierrez is if BB feels that he needs more behind his 2nd year 3rd round prospect. Hoyer can always go to the PS if he shows sufficient promise to be a solid #3 in 2010. If either KOC or Gutz don't impress as camp continues someone else like Lemon will be brought in to bridge the gap.
Actually, Gutierrez still has PS eligibility as well. Dressing as the third QB doesn't count against PS eligibility doesn't count if you don't play.
But this sort of begs the questionâ€”if he's so raw, why did the Pats spend a third on him?
Potential upside (they graded him out as a 1st based on measurables) given their coaching and starting (mentor) situation plus they knew the cupboard was going to be bare in 2009, Cassel would be gone to a place where he had a shot at starting, and they wanted someone in place beyond an Gutz who was an UDFA and likely at best a career backup. Bill was also at the point career wise where he's running out of the Vinny types he can bring in who can still remotely function.
They were actually high on Gutz at this point last year (something some in the media misread as being down on Cassel) and I believe Bill wanted a developmental QB in a scarce market that he could potentially flip in less than 4 years because that represented value. Because of Cassel's draft and college status it would have been really hard to flip him sooner absent the opportunity Brady being lost presented to showcase him in season. He was always worth more on the roster than in trade prior to the 2008 season. KOC will never be a starter here, but if he looks the part he could be a starter somewhere else before his contract runs out...
Bill has always wanted to be a QB factory because it represents double value - on the roster and in trade.
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