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Obama's massive wealth re-distribution

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by mikey, Feb 22, 2009.

  1. mikey

    mikey Rookie

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  2. Patriot_in_NY

    Patriot_in_NY Rookie

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  3. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The Obama Dream
    DICTATOR --He wants the Obama Government to have full control of your life.

    TEAR DOWN THAT WALL
  4. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    It sounds like you're against helping the poor and colored people, but concerned about tax increases for the rich. When did you become a Republican?

    In my view, a little more socialism, besides Social Security, Medicare, and public education, would improve the country. Under Eisenhower we had a 90% tax bracket. I guess if Obama's 39% bracket is socialism, Eisenhower must have been a commie.
  5. mikey

    mikey Rookie

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    I have said before that I am not against helping the poor and colored people due to circumstances beyond their control. But that is different from bailing out the at-risk homeowners who should have been renting in the first place.

    .
  6. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey

    Colored people? Term is disturbing Mikey.

    [​IMG]
  7. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Mikey, while some homeowners are certainly guilty of what you describe, this is a common scenario, too:

    A person goes into a real estate broker to find out if he can buy a place.

    The real estate broker presents him with a reasonably honest proposal: "Take a 5/1 ARM," which at that time lenders had offered with very attractive rates (part of their predatory lending scheme).

    The broker then presents the buyer with two facts:
    - Shows the buyer a chart that shows home values climbing dramatically -- a trajectory that seems likely to continue.
    - Points out to the buyer that his salary will continue to increase, making his payments a smaller part of his income over time.

    But, what's really going on is that lenders (with brokers as willing accomplices) are inflating the market at an absurd rate and no one is stopping them.

    When I bought my place in 1994, it was actually no cheaper to rent than to buy, and I bet many people were like me and made their decision based on that fact.

    Also, you do realize that the foreclosure plan basically helps people reduce their monthly payments, not reduce the cost of their home (though it allows lenders to mess with both principal and interest rates). The hope is that this will stabilize the real estate markets, which will not only help those being foreclosed on, but also help other owners who have seen the value of their homes drop.
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2009
  8. ljuneau

    ljuneau Rookie

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    In summary, the government attempting to keep home prices artificially high, bad idea and has never worked. Why not let the market adjust itself. Yes prices have and will drop, but this creates a great buying opportunity (see California existing home purchases for Jan). Renting is more appropriate for people who can't afford their homes.
  9. ljuneau

    ljuneau Rookie

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    Oh yea, social security, medicare and the public education system are such success stories! The gifts that keep on giving.
  10. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    That is why in most states a lawyer for the buyer is required to read the fine print and represent the interest of the buyer. If the buyer sowsn't obtain the advice of their lawyer it is on them.

    Who the hell would make a purchase that would cost them hundred of thousands or millions of dollars over the life of the mortgage?
  11. mikey

    mikey Rookie

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    Patters --

    I thought your argument is disingenuous.
    You put all the blame on the lenders and portrayed the buyers as stupid and naive to fall prey to the brokers.
    The reality is that home prices were going up and many of these at-risk homeowners wanted to join in the "housing mania".
    Renters brought homes and previous homeowners moved to larger homes.
    These folks are no different from the Madoff investors, who made a decision to investment in certain assets.
    Just like you, I also brought my home in the early 1990's. You cannot compare our situation to the current situation.
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2009
  12. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign On the Roster

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    Are you THAT ignorant that you use the term "colored people"? Do you have any education at all?

    Grow up!
  13. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I think it's reasonable for a home-buyer to rely to some degree on the expertise of a broker and a lender. I think most buyers have always done that. I think there were several kinds of exploitation by brokers and lenders:
    - Well intentioned exploitation, encouraging people to buy because things are good.
    - Sympathetic exploitation, wanting to help a family realize its dream of getting a home
    - Careless exploitation, bad advice because of a broker or lender's incompetence
    - Corrupt, intentionally dishonest sales and advice

    But, I also agree that there were some people who bought over their heads just because they were greedy, flashy, or competitive. But, I think that most of the greedy people will need more than a cut in interest rates to hold onto their ugly giant homes. At any rate, I don't think most homeowners were greedy. Do you?
  14. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Rookie

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    so it's alright to give billions of dollars to wall street? how is that reallocation of wealth?

    it was borrowing money from citizens and telling them they have to pay it back later.

    great deal!!!
  15. elway7

    elway7 Rookie

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  16. mikey

    mikey Rookie

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  17. mikey

    mikey Rookie

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    I am not sure if "greed" is the right term to describe most of these homeowners.
    But they are certainly not as naive as you painted them to be.
    Housing prices have been going up and up for the past 2 decades.
    Houses were thought of not just as a place to live, but also as investment assets.
    Many people were refinancing to use their home equity to pay for college education and other expenses.
    You can equate the "housing mania" to the "internet mania" of the 1990s.
    Did people buy houses as investment asset? Sure.
    Should we bail them out now that their investment went sour?
    Should be bail out the Madoff investors?

    There is no difference between these "at-risk" homeowners and the Madoff investors. At lot of their decisions were driven for financial gains.

    .
  18. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Elway and Mikey, I dare you to try an experiment:

    Ask three African American men (or women):

    "As an African American, are you especially proud of Barack Obama?"

    Then ask three others,

    "As a colored (man/woman), are you especially proud of Barack Obama?"

    See if "colored" gets you any raised eyebrows or other adverse reactions.

    Here's a little parallel from my own background: Due to the history between Jews and Gentiles -- which was not always entirely amicable -- and due to the exclusiveness (by nature) of YMCA/YWCA, Jews in America formed the YMHA/YWHA (Young Mens Hebrew Association/Young Womens Hebrew Association).

    No Jew in America I have ever met identifies him as a "Hebrew." Coming from another Jew, the term might be an inside joke, or might be just a little weird. Coming from a Gentile I did not know, were that individual to say "as a Hebrew, what are your feelings on _____?," I would be certain that person was a bigot or an ignoramous. Hebrew is currently used to denote a language, not an ethnic group.

    Yet the YMHA/YWHAs are already formed, and retain the names of their founding. The YMHA dates from the 1850s; that was the current parlance at that time. Times have changed.

    You may note the inconsistency and say "well then why don't they change the name?" The answer is: that's not your call.

    What is your call is to choose to use offensive language that, coming from outside the group, is obvious evidence of your intent to cause discomfort and telegraph bigotry.

    If you didn't know this, now you do. Don't call Jews Hebrews, and don't call African Americans "colored."

    See that was easy, wasn't it?

    PFnV
  19. mikey

    mikey Rookie

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    "Colored people" was not meant as an insult to African-American. In the context of this discussion, it was intended to be a generic term to include all "non-whites" who will be the beneficiary of Obama's bailout largess.

    .
  20. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    "Colored people" is a dated expression, but it's not offensive. Today the words of choice are "blacks" or "African Americans."

    That said, I think Mikey was wrong to say, "First a huge bailout for 'at-risk' homeowners, who are mostly poor and colored people." Is he suggesting that if those at risk homeowners were middle class and white it would be better? What does race have to do with this issue? Also, I believe I have read that it's mostly white people who are affected by this crisis. Does Mikey have a source or is he making an assumption based on his stereotypes of blacks?

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