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Obama to expand Bush's faith based programs

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Real World, Jul 1, 2008.

  1. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    It'll be funny to see how some people who criticized GW's program spin this. They're all the same I tell ya. Is he pandering, or is he religious whacko like GW was/is to some people?


    Obama to expand Bush's faith based programs

    Jul 1, 7:28 AM (ET)

    By JENNIFER LOVEN

    CHICAGO (AP) - Reaching out to evangelical voters, Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama is announcing plans that would expand President Bush's program steering federal social service dollars to religious groups and - in a move sure to cause controversy - support their ability to hire and fire based on faith.

    Obama was unveiling his approach to getting religious charities more involved in government anti-poverty programs during a tour and remarks Tuesday at Eastside Community Ministry in Zanesville, Ohio. The arm of Central Presbyterian Church operates a food bank, provides clothes, has a youth ministry and provides other services in its impoverished community.

    "The challenges we face today, from putting people back to work to improving our schools, from saving our planet to combating HIV/AIDS to ending genocide, are simply too big for government to solve alone," Obama was to say, according to a prepared text of his remarks obtained by The Associated Press. "We need all hands on deck."

    But Obama's support for letting religious charities that receive federal funding consider religion in employment decisions was likely to invite a storm of protest from those who view such faith requirements as discrimination.

    http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080701/D91L1BDO1.html
     
  2. STFarmy

    STFarmy In the Starting Line-Up

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    I just saw this on yahoo's homepage. Pretty interesting.
     
  3. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I don't like it one bit (and already posted my complaint in a liberal forum and wrote a protest to the Obama campaign). While in principal, I have nothing against helping churches help the poor, the problem is that churches can and will use the money for things they would have otherwise funded themselves -- such as building repairs, utilities, secretarial support, etc., and thus free up money for proselytizing. Obama has come out wrong on FISA and the death penalty, and has backtracked on his courageous stand on Iraq, and has even implicitly attacked MoveOn and General Clark for their criticisms of McCain. I think he promises to to be a weak president if he doesn't start to make the case for change.
     
  4. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Do not care for this one bit, what gets me that during Katrina the churches sent down slews of people and collected mucho money, then they could recoup the actual cost from the gov't.. this was wrong when Bush did it and wrong when Obama does it.. it seems to be a constitutional issue, and hopefully the SCOTUS rules against it..
     
  5. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    I like the part where he wants to let churches consider (hire and fire) according to a persons religion. Maybe that's what he means by change? Change your muslim employee's for jewish ones, or your catholics or mormons? :D
     
  6. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Attention Anti Jesus H Christ People And All Upstanding Slobbering Socialist Communist Progressive Bush Hating Blame America Citizens:

    Don't worry about this latest "God Sh!t" from His Highness Prince Barry, this paddle ear sweet talking phony will do and say anything to get Oprah and Uncle Jeremiah into the Lincoln Bedroom.

    Don't worry liberals, as soon as the Messiah is sworn in he will be one of you again, he is nothing but another "honey speaking" phony lying politician bastard.

    GOD DAMN AMERICA
    GOD HELP AMERICA
    JESUS SAVES
     
  7. PatsWSB47

    PatsWSB47 Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    #12 Jersey

    Compromising his "principles" for votes. Surprised anyone?
     
  8. PatsFanInEaglesLand

    PatsFanInEaglesLand In the Starting Line-Up

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    #37 Jersey

    Why would a Muslim want to work for a mormon orginization? Or vice versa?

    Are they just looking to bitch and sue?
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2008
  9. otis p. driftwood

    otis p. driftwood Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    Do you know this for a fact or is it just an opinion--out of curiosity.

    ***full disclosure--I abhor organized religion with a...well...with a religious zeal :rolleyes: but churches can and do good things, soup kitchens, clothing, shelter etc.
     
  10. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The question becomes should they be reimbursed by the federal gov't for this expected role after it has already been funded by the parishioners????
     
  11. otis p. driftwood

    otis p. driftwood Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    Same question, do you have proof this happens? The churches in my area that raised money and went to NO after Katrina/Rita didn't get money back to the best of my knowledge.
     
  12. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    That's how federal funding always works, even grants to homeowners after a natural disaster. You provide money which offsets other costs. Not every penny goes for the primary purpose. Whilemany churches operate totally above board and do truly noble work, churches do not nearly have the transparency as government. Look at the Boston Catholic Church for instance. Prying details of their wealth out of them took lawsuits. Now, some churches, if they get a $10k grant, will put every penny into helping the poor, but others will legally use some of that money to, for instance, fix up a dining hall in need of repair. In addition, the money will be used for God's work, even if it is feeding the poor.

    To some extent, I know this for a fact. I was a volunteer at the Boston Film/Video Foundation years ago and wrote a grant that netted $50k. There were logical efficiencies generated by that money. For instance, part of the grant was used for their educational programs, but they already had some of infrastructure (such as staffing, mailing lists, etc.) in place. The costs of that infrastructure were paid for out of the grant, freeing up money for other purposes (which in the case of BF/VF was probably equipment or something like that). In the case of a church, it could free up money for good causes or for proselytizing.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2008
  13. FreeTedWilliams

    FreeTedWilliams pfadmins PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    Can anyone else smell the NOI getting your tax dollar??????
     
  14. otis p. driftwood

    otis p. driftwood Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    So because you were a volunteer in an unrelated field and got a grant and the organization spent the money on various necessary things (not necessarily related to the grant itself) that means that churches automatically do the same?

    I'm sure some do, but I bet most don't. They don't need to. They don't pay taxes and they own prime real estate.
     
  15. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I know it happened, do not have time to research this, but if you would like to google it and spend some time you will be surprised that it did indeed happen.. it is usually one of those dirty little secrets that goes on in the fed gov't..

    here is at least one instance:

    http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/ne...F4AE5615A239761E8625734200119B96?OpenDocument

     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2008
  16. otis p. driftwood

    otis p. driftwood Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    So--not trying to be argumentative at all--but what part of "I'm sure some do, but I bet most don't" isn't clear?
     
  17. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    But you do not know, just another assumption..
     
  18. otis p. driftwood

    otis p. driftwood Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    So in the link you posted, it mentions that the Red Cross was involved in "prodding" for the reimbursement. Don't you find that a little odd?

    I think you're trying to use apples to argue for oranges, but far be it from me to tell you you're wrong.
    :D
     
  19. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    It looks to me as if the reimbursement is for services rendered. Basically, a catastrophe happens, and people's homes are destroyed, making shelter, food, and care a need. The church puts out for these people, and the fed comes in to help out with the cost of doing so.

    As GAJ quoted above:
    This is where principle meets the system.

    If only people would look, and learn, from some of the words above. It reminds me of the classic saying.

    [​IMG]
     
  20. otis p. driftwood

    otis p. driftwood Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    RW--that cartooon--one day I was at a dedication of a former Native American villiage spot as a park (I'd been one of the archaeologists who excavated there...burials, year after year of occupation...just an amazing area)...anyway, it was particularly poigniant, as a very old Native American man--looked like the guy in those old pollution ads, only much much older...stood up to speak about his heritage and so forth, and he said "my ancestors never knew such terror as the day they were approached by white men who uttered eight simple words in English" then he paused and went on to say "and now that they're gone, their decendants appreciate the fear even more..."

    And he stopped talking and there were state reps and the govenor and people from Washington...I mean the woods were full of suits...someone finally said "what were those words?"

    "I'm from the government. I'm here to help."

    And with that the old guy turned around and walked off into the woods, and man the suits were quiet for a few seconds.

    I was trying hard not to laugh...and getting elbowed by the NH Deputy State Archaeologist...LOL
     

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