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Obama publishes 'torture' memos

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Rossmci90, Apr 16, 2009.

  1. Rossmci90

    Rossmci90 Rookie

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  2. apple strudel

    apple strudel Banned

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    It's the people's government and we have a right to know what they are doing. We pay their salaries.

    He should open the whole thing up, but he won't.
  3. Wildo7

    Wildo7 Totally Full of It

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    If he doesn't we're likely to get a few comments from the right about how his "transparency" promises were a bunch of BS, and now that he has they'll tell us all how much he hates America. Personally I'm glad he did the right thing in this case, we have a right to know about the crimes that have been committed n our name.
  4. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    OOOHHHH the put him in a box with a catapillar, how terrible!!!!!!!!!
  5. Wildo7

    Wildo7 Totally Full of It

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    why'd they do it then?
  6. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    To find out if the guy who had operational control of a mission that killed 3,000 people had another mass murder in the works. Maybe they were pissed at the catapillar, or at least that is what Harry told me. :D
  7. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey

    Did he eat the thing?

    Why didn't he just teabag it?
  8. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Not sure , maybe they showed him a pic of obama and he felt a tingle run up his leg that he thought was the bug....:D
  9. Wildo7

    Wildo7 Totally Full of It

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    But if it's not torture why is it supposed to make him talk?
  10. PressCoverage

    PressCoverage Banned

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    a bit more was revealed than just that, torture fan... i'm not letting you get away with the sneaky insinuation that it was all innocuous...

    "this government does NOT torture people".... George W. Bush, 2006

    anyhow...

    this is a huge story, on a number of different levels... i'm glad someone posted it... and with it, another con man talking point is officially put to bed... it's not surprising, however, that as the WoT went along, con man rhetoric on this issue switched from "prove we torture!!" to "so? we're at war! prove they're not terrorists!!".... mmm, yeah... :rolleyes:

    a few key things to not overlook in this:

    - torture occurred, and was sanctioned BY the White House... (not that there was EVER any doubt)
    - Obama is asserting the CIA will not face accountability for that fact... that they were just following orders from above...
    - the CIA is showing its gratitude by trashing Obama for acknowledging torture occurred in the first place...
    - Obama said nothing specific about the future prosecution of senior Bush League officials... (but)...
    - Obama DID insist it was important to acknowledge it happened, yet to ultimately move on...

    Congress should/could still weigh in... but... it looks like Obama will not advocate ultimate accountability for Cheney and Rummie...

    thus, yet ANOTHER example of a Bush League criminal acts has come and gone WITHOUT any ultimate accountability... it's sorta like a commissioner of baseball refusing to punish for rampant gambling among players and coaches...

    and, in the end, here it all is in a nutsell:

    it's not merit that has ever been lacking regarding accountability for Bush League crimes.... never has been.... they did it, just like they wiretapped, fired attorneys for political reasons, purges thousands of incriminating emails from their system, and so on and so forth... (despite 28 percenters' ad nauseum claims that nothing ever happened)...

    so, no... it was never merit... what is lacking is merely the will power (political or otherwise) to follow through with the legal process.


    :cool:
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2009
  11. Patriot_in_NY

    Patriot_in_NY Rookie

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    :singing:

    Wipe your chin, there is a little spittle left on it. :singing:

    Seriously............. Torture.......... for putting a catapiller on the guy's forehead. Get real. :rolleyes:

    Now, if we had put an incision over his abdomen and started yanking his entrails out until he squealed, well then, we'd be walking in lock-step on this one. Waterboarding................ Debatable, but you can argue for or against. I see both sides. If you ask me, and I had read these memo's, I'd have said the same thing......... NONE of these things rise to my definition of torture (as it relates to TERRORISTS).

    Beyond the waterboarding stuff, the rest of the stuff is a joke......... it's just not as funny as this faux lefty outrage over it.
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2009
  12. Wildo7

    Wildo7 Totally Full of It

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    Can you explain to me why they would do it if it then? I still haven't gotten a straight answer. If you do something physical to somebody to force them to talk when they don't want to, if it wasn't torture why would they respond?

    The fact that they've evolved torture and it doesn't fit with the conventional dungeon imagery means what exactly? How is it any less torturous to feel as if you are drowning to death than it is being beaten with a stick?

    They wouldn't have developed these methods if they weren't highly effective in inflicting extreme pain, mental or physical.
  13. PressCoverage

    PressCoverage Banned

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    wtf does this even mean?

    so typical of a torture advocate to focus on the most innocuous example released, as if that's all there was... the point is, your president said they didn't torture, and they most certainly did... it doesn't matter how you wanna spin it, you really have no choice any longer but to admit violations of the Geneva Conventions occured...

    Your opinion is noted... I see some of the techniques listed as mild and reasonable... Waterboarding is not one of them... And considering a number of detainees are documented to have died violently while in custody, I have a very hard time believing they were killed by caterpillar...

    Then there's the report that a small percentage of them held are even guilty of terror or insurgency...

    Nor as funny as watching Bush loving conservatives change their rationale from "prove they torture" to "ok, then prove they're not terrorists!"
  14. Patriot_in_NY

    Patriot_in_NY Rookie

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    You know exactly what I mean.... I was just joshing you. We can move on, and we don't have to be so serious in our disagreements. ;)

    What deaths - THESE.

    When it came down to it, 11 deaths that involve "involved blunt trauma or asphyxiation" to those who died as a result of trauma related to interrogation, restraint, and abuse. 3 of those cases resulted in homicide charges. It does not differentiate between interrogation deaths and "restraint, and abuse" death. I suspect the latter is probably a greater proportion of them, because restraint, and abuse are non-controlled event, usually by minimally trained folks likes gaurds. If a guy is resisting and five guys pile on him melee style, good chance that he will asphyxiate. That happens in police agencies all over the contry.

    I would LIKE to see the actual number of deaths that occured PURELY as a function of interrogation. My suspicion is that they all involved techniques OUTSIDE the 10 listed in those memos. Those 10 interrogation ARE NOT likely to result in death under any circumstances. In fact, other then the arguable exception of waterboarding, won't even cause long term pain or injury. Those memo seek permission ONLY for those methods, to be performed by TRAINED staff. None of the people discussed in the memo as having those methods apllied died.

    THOSE ARE THE ONLY ONES that you can hold against the administration, becasue those are the ones described in the memos. The administration viewed them as "not torture" and I agree with them.

    If some A-hole went above and beyond and used UNAUTHORIZED methods that resulted in death, then they should be held to account. Just as when an individual police officer shoves a broomstick up a suspect's azz, he should be held to account. Individual criminality in NOT the same as institutional criminality. I think you are somewhat lumping the two together.

    That is my opinion though.

    My opionion has been constant from the start. When I see the bush memo that say's "Do what it takes to get the info we need", we're gonna have to just disagree here.

    The memo's I read discuss 10 methods that most will agree, won't kill you (even waterboarding). To the extent that deaths occured from methods OUTSIDE those (unathorized methods), then we will agree. Those are unacceptable and when proven, responsible parties should be held to account.
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2009
  15. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The get information about operations designed to kill civilians. He guys who were waterboarded were the head planners of operations like 9-11. I have NO PROBLEM with any of what was in the memo against these guys. They waterboarded 3 people, they didn't do it for fun they did it to save the lives of you fellow countrymen.


    They wouldn't have developed these methods if they weren't highly effective in inflicting extreme pain, mental or physical.[/QUOTE]



    I am glad they have these methods. These people killed many Americans and others (Kenyan embassy bombing for example).

    What better method for getting information to save innocent lives would you suggest?
  16. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    He's being transparent with a former presidents paperwork. Let's see if he's as transparent with his own. This is political ploy, in part, to focus attention on an unpopular president, over a controversial issue, at a time when public disdain could potentially be on the rise. It's smart on his part in all honesty, although he should remember that the next guy will feel empowered to do the same. I've got no issues with it really, so long as he doesn't whine when it's done to him. Cuz it certainly will be.

    I haven't seen the memo's in question, so I can't comment on their content. If what I heard on the radio is accurate though, and they put a catapillar (sp?) on someone's head, um, who cares? I'm opposed to torture, as most in here know, but I am supportive of coercive measures of interogation. Loud music, feeding people pourage, cold cells, good cop/bad cop, etc. Physical abuse is what I feel is unacceptable.
  17. Patriot_in_NY

    Patriot_in_NY Rookie

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    Essentially, the way most people feel (me included). What those memo's really were, was basically one entity asking another....... Do these 10 things constitute torture?

    ...... and the other people responding "sorta, depends on how you do it? Be more specific".

    For example - Is putting an insect on you head torture? Depends. If it's a fukcing black widow spider....... then yeah. But if it's a fuzzy little caterpillar. Then no.

    I read two of them (they weren't that exciting). It was little more then. We want to do this? Can we? followed by their answers. It was also VERY SPECIFIC as to who and how.

    That why the whole "tortured people to death" while Bush and Cheney watched is a bunch of horsesh!t. If people died in custody (and a few did), it wasn't sanctioned stuff. We weren't hooking car batteries up to peoples nut sack and juicing em up. If that happened, it was because someone took it upon themselves to commit a crime
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2009
  18. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Wouldn't It Have Been Nice:
    By Harry.

    Wouldn't it have been nice if way back in the good old days of "Billy Blue Dress" if say, Boob Gore or even Pant Suit Hillary had approached The President after he was through Jerking Off under his desk and said "Mr President, there are some Muslims down in Florida taking flying lessons but they have informed the instructor that they have no intrest in learning how to land the plane, doesn't that seem strange Mr President"

    Wouldn't It Have Been Nice if President Blue Dress had bit his lip like a cute little boy and said "bring those f--cking smelly bastards up here and start pulling their finger nails out and stick some ice cubes up their a$s then after they talk behead them.

    Wouldn't It Have Been Nice if after this "Islamic Type Interogation" 3000 innocent unsuspecting human beings would be alive today and planning a 4th of July cookout with their kids and their dog.

    IF ONE LIFE WILL SAVE 3000 THEN DO IT
  19. godef

    godef Rookie

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    Sheesh... did you actually READ PC's post? :rolleyes:
  20. apple strudel

    apple strudel Banned

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    The real point is why do we even want to do these things when it's well established that torture doesn't even work? You don't get intel out of it. It doesn't save lives. And it's perverse, any way you slice it (except Rush, of course, who's looser with the facts than Marylin Chambers).

    It looks to me like Naomi Klein is right on the matter.

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