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Obama Health Care Horror

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Harry Boy, Aug 12, 2009.

  1. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    She slaps Bush around also so there's something for everybody..

    Today:
    I just don't get it. Why the insane rush to pass a bill, any bill, in three weeks? And why such an abject failure by the Obama administration to present the issues to the public in a rational, detailed, informational way? The U.S. is gigantic; many of our states are bigger than whole European nations. The bureaucracy required to institute and manage a nationalized health system here would be Byzantine beyond belief and would vampirically absorb whatever savings Obama thinks could be made. And the transition period would be a nightmare of red tape and mammoth screw-ups, which we can ill afford with a faltering economy.
    Obama's healthcare horror | Salon
  2. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    There's no rush at all. The issue has been debated and researched since the 1970s. Now, we're at the nuts and bolts stage where the poilticians negotiate a compromise to get enough votes.
  3. mikey

    mikey Rookie

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    I don't recall any national debate on nationalizing the U.S. health care system in the 1970's or even the 1980's.


    .
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2009
  4. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Kennedy pushed it in the '70s, and it actually got some traction. Hillary Clinton pushed it in the 1990s. Truman and FDR also proposed national health care, but I don't know much about their proposals at all. While it's true not much happened in the '80s, the fact is the issue is very well vetted.
  5. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    The American people don't want this bill.

    The people do want :

    Insurance help for those unable to pay for it.
    Lower costs where possible.
    Insurance companies not being able to squirm out of paying for those they cover.

    That's about it. We don't want this beast.
  6. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Why don't they let the American People VOTE ON IT in November, a simple Yes/No vote, boy wouldn't that be something.
  7. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Isn't that pretty much what the bill provides? It provides help for those who can't afford insurance, lower costs, and makes it more difficult for insurance companies to squirm out of covering some one. But, to do all that, you have to spell it out to some degree. Take a look at the actual bill:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/07/15/house-health-care-bill-fu_n_234372.html

    I think an honest look at the bill will eliminate any notion that it was made up on the fly or quickly glued together without thought. Much of the bill deals with the logistics of implementing the plan, both from an economic and administrative point of view. Indeed, a lot of the projected savings comes from administrative standardization, so the bill not only has to spell out what that means, but it has to require it.
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2009
  8. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    Get rid of the public option and I would possibly be OK with it. That is the elephant in the room that I am not willing to accept because the obamans want it to have an uneven playing field so it can put insurance companies out of business.

    I want tort reform which isn't in the bill.
    I want restrictions on interstate insurance to be lifted which isn't in the bill.
  9. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The public option in my opinion is key. The insurance industry will do fine. Let's suppose you opted for the public option, and then saw that you buy additional insurance for a reasonable price that would cover, e.g., experimental treatment, private hospital room, rehab treatment at a private hospital, etc. would you consider that? I think the public option will result in insurance companies offering enhancement to it as well as offering their own insurance policies that offer some nice perks.

    There's a legitimate philosophical disagreement. The belief is that you force hospitals to improve and doctors to change behaviors by inflicting economic pain. The area, I think you really have an issue with, is medical malpractice. But, how do you propose punishing a doctor who amputates the wrong leg of someone because he had a few drinks at lunch? Do you want to protect him? Why?

    Part of them problem is with the jury system. Sometimes juries and courts do strange things -- they acquit the guilty, convict the innocent, impose outlandish punishments. But, I don't know what the answer is that. The jury system still seems to be the best. I think the Swedish jury systems uses civilian experts, rather than just anyone, but I'm not sure that's any better than what we have.

    I don't know anything about that. But, wouldn't a public policy address what you're talking about? A key benefit of a public policy would probably be that it would be the same benefits for all states. I would think private insurance companies would have to match that as a baseline benefit. But, maybe I'm misunderstanding the issue?
  10. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    A public option is a dead option to me. I don't want them competing on an uneven playing field. I don't want that playing field putting insurance companies out of business. If I don't like my insurance company I want to be able to change it; if we're stuck with the government we have to accept what they decide, with insurance if I don't like a decision I can look elsewhere.

    Here's an article about interstate insurance :

    McCain Is Right On Interstate Health Insurance - WSJ.com

    I also think health insurance should be like car insurance, for bigger things. Car insurance doesn't cover oil changes or air filters. The high deductible Health Savings Account is a great plan (I can't get it where I live) where insurance only covers the big ticket items (so it's a lot cheaper) and you put pre tax money in your HSA that can accumulate over time to pay for smaller stuff like run of the mill doctor's visits.

    Google whole foods insurance plan or something along those lines to see the HDHSA in action.
  11. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    When I had my own business, I investigated several of those high-deductible plans. They were total ripoffs. They were expensive and had limitations of an order I never saw anywhere else. I finally decided to go with BC/BS because, relatively speaking, their plan was straightforward and competitively priced.

    Also, if you believe that preventative care is cost effective then you want to do what you can to encourage people to have yearly physicals and be able to make their health decisions based on something other than what they can afford. For that reason, I don't like the idea of high deductible health care plans.
  12. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    Insurance paying for everything is what makes it so expensive. They'll charge anything they can if the patient isn't paying. It's a failed concept.
  13. patsfan13

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    Not all the horrific provisions of these bills, which the dems tried to rush through last month...
  14. Patsfanin Philly

    Patsfanin Philly Rookie

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    Health care costs started rising exponentially when out of pocket costs starting shrinking. People don't get a real sense of the true cost when"somebody else is paying". There is no incentive on the patient's part to keep costs down if his only outlay is a $100 deductible nor is it on the hospital or doctor's part. If the patient has to pay more, that will alter behavior, be it preventive or otherwise. It is the economic disconnect that has fueled the rise in health care costs.
  15. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Stupid Obama Health:
    Patient -"Thank God Doctor, I've Waited In Line For Three Years To See You"
    Doctor -"Whats Seems To Be Wrong"
    Patient -"It Hurts When I do This"
    Doctor -"Don't Do That"
    Patient-"Thank You Doctor"

    Doctor -"Whos Next Nurse"
    Nurse -"Mrs Copulate, She's been In Line For Eight Years"
    Doctor -"Whats Wrong With Her"
    Nurse -"Her Fellopian Tubes Are All F-cked Up"
    Doctor -"Tell Her To Come Back Next August"


    Lay your head,
    Upon my pillow
    Hold your warm and tender body
    Close to mine
  16. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    Just wait until everything is free. obama has already mentioned that co-pays are bad and shouldn't exist. So it's free. Got a sniffle ? Go to the doctor, if won't even cost a $15 copay. Giving stuff away for free and claiming it will reduce costs just makes no sense.
  17. JackBauer

    JackBauer Rookie

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    Got a non-partisan source to support your assertion that a public option would put insurance companies out of business?
  18. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    Barney Frank was caught on camera saying that the public option is the first, necessary step to single payer (which is the definition of putting insurance companies out of business).

    Google will give you plenty of links.
  19. Patsfanin Philly

    Patsfanin Philly Rookie

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    Here's the youtube of it....


    YouTube - Public option will lead to Single Payer Barney Frank
  20. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    It is a step towards single payer, but there's no guarantee of that at all. In fact, Medicare in many ways was an even bigger step towards single payer. If we get there someday hopefully it will be for good reasons. If we don't get there, hopefully it will be for good reasons.

    But, saying it's a step towards single payer would be like saying increasing the marginal rate on taxes is a step towards socialism or allowing church groups to get federal monies is a step towards a theocracy. It's a fear tactic.
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2009
  21. patsfan13

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    According the the CBO preventative health care doesn't save any $$$. The biggest preventative care of course is diet and exercise, something government doesn't control.
  22. patsfan13

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  23. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    The problem (from the anti single payer perspective) is obama, Pelosi, Frank and those in power are on record as being in favor of single payer. So while there's "no guarantee" there is a virtual implicit guarantee.
  24. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I'm all for single payer, but single payer must be at least a few dozen votes away from even being a possibility. In general, I think liberal Republicans, blue dog Democrats, and many other Democrats do not support single payer for a number of reasons, including the perceived importance of the insurance industry to economic activity and their reluctance to embrace European models. If we get national health care, it means it took 40 years to get this far. It will take at least another 40 to get single payer, and it's unlikely that even then we'll have a form of single payer that excluded insurance companies.
  25. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Single payer does not eliminate insurance companies. Medicare is proof of that. My mom has Medicare and private insurance on top of it. The existing bill cannot inevitably lead to a single payer system because there would need to be legislation passed by Congress. If your point is that the Republican Party is dead, I might sympathize with you a little, but even without a Republican Party there are plenty of Democrats who oppose single payer.

    Rather than post links to 36 page white papers, why don't pick and choose a few points that you think are especially meaningful? Surely you don't expect us to read propaganda by a conservative think tank and an author who worked for both Reagan and Bush!
  26. JackBauer

    JackBauer Rookie

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    Got any source other than Barney Frank's opinion?
  27. JackBauer

    JackBauer Rookie

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  28. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    It eliminates insurance as we know it. There would be a small market for supplemental insurance but that is irrelevant to the problem of basic healthcare being controlled by the government so if you don't like it you have nowhere else to go.
  29. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    There is no better source than obama, Pelosi and Frank all stating it.
  30. JackBauer

    JackBauer Rookie

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    Except for the political realities, that, you know, would preclude that from happening.

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