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NY Times: A Prosecutorial Brief Against Israel and Its Supporters

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by maverick4, Sep 6, 2007.

  1. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    “The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy” paper arrives, carrying heavy baggage. John J. Mearsheimer, a political scientist at the University of Chicago, and Stephen M. Walt, a professor of international affairs at the John F. Kennedy School of Government at Harvard, set off a furor last year by arguing, in an article that appeared in The London Review of Books, that uncritical American support for Israel, shaped by powerful lobbying organizations like the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, does grave harm to both American and Israeli interests.

    Slowly, deliberately and dispassionately Mr. Mearsheimer and Mr. Walt lay out the case for a ruthlessly realistic Middle East policy that would make Israel nothing more than one of many countries in the region. On those occasions when Israel’s interests coincide with America’s, it should count on American support, but otherwise not. What Americans fail to understand, the authors argue, is that most of the time the two countries’ interests are opposed.

    The reason they do not realize this, Mr. Mearsheimer and Mr. Walt insist, can be explained quite simply: The Israel lobby makes sure of it. Working closely with members of Congress, public-policy organizations and journals of opinion, energetic, well-financed groups like the American Israel Public Affairs Committee and the American Jewish Committee, along with dozens of political-action committees, perpetuate the myth, as the authors see it, of Israel as an isolated, beleaguered state surrounded by enemies and in need of America’s unstinting financial and military support.

    This lobby is particularly adept at stifling debate before it begins, the authors argue. “Whether the issue is abortion, arms control, affirmative action, gay rights, the environment, trade policy, health care, immigration or welfare, there is almost always a lively debate on Capitol Hill,” they write. “But where Israel is concerned, potential critics fall silent and there is hardly any debate at all.”

    There is nothing underhanded or devious about this, the authors say. Like the National Rifle Association or the AARP, the Israel lobby relies on the traditional political weapons available to any special-interest group in pressing its agenda. It just happens to be unusually skillful and effective.

    “It is simply a powerful interest group, made up of both Jews and gentiles, whose acknowledged purpose is to press Israel’s case within the United States and influence American foreign policy in ways that its members believe will benefit the Jewish state,” they write.

    The problem, Mr. Mearsheimer and Mr. Walt argue, is that Israel has become a strategic liability with the end of the cold war and a moral pariah in its dealings with the Palestinians and, most recently, the Lebanese. Uncritical American support for its closest Middle East ally has damaged American credibility in the Arab world, encouraged terrorism, stymied the search for a solution to the Palestinian problem, and in every way made America’s international position weaker and more dangerous."

    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/06/books/06grim.html
    Posted for the reader whose username is 'snake'.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2007
  2. Snake

    Snake Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    I simply disagree with Mearsheimer basic premise that Israel and the Israel lobby control the government and the media.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2007
  3. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    that's not their premise at all. read more carefully.
     
  4. Snake

    Snake Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    That's always been their basic premise that the neocons control everything that happens in the media and with government. Here's another review of the work from the "other" side.


    http://www.adl.org/Israel/mearsheimer_walt.asp
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2007
  5. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Not to long ago I used to be called by liberals a Bigotted Anti Semite because I stated a fact that Jewish people ran show business especially Hollywood, Marlon Brando agreed with me and they ran him out of town on a rail, now the same Liberals that called me and Brando "bigots" are worse than we ever thought of being.

    Jimmy "Sissy" Carter the sniveling little wishy washy Liberal is now a Hard Core Flaming Anti Semite, my point is, what caused all this what turned the Liberals into Anti Semites, does all this Anti Jewish stuff coming from liberals (NY Times, Carter etc) bother the politically correct liberal?
    Many if not most Jews in America are Liberal Democrats, what do they think of the liberal "back stabbing"?
    :bricks:
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2007
  6. Snake

    Snake Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    Agenda and ingorance. Jimmy Carter has never been pro-Israel. There really isn't anything new in what he does.

    Your brush paints all liberals as being anti Jewish. That's much too wide a generalization. Any bigotry should be the concern of any American.
     
  7. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    No not all liberals, I don't think Jewish Liberals are anti semitic.

    There are now millions of liberals in America who secretly and some openly support Palestine the Land Of The Restaurant & Bus Bombers.
     
  8. Snake

    Snake Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    If what you say is true, why do you suppose that is...and do you have anything to support that claim? Millions is a lot of people.
     
  9. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Speaking as an American Jew, I support Palestine -- for the vast majority, the land of getting by as a Palestinian, and that's that. Long-term, the solution there is not a state of permanent occupation. It's the establishment of a Palestinian state.

    Short term, however, the Palestinian leadership seems to shoot itself in the foot regularly (metaphorically,) while shooting others in various body parts at the same time. And no, I don't have an immediate solution. That's why Israel/Palestine issues are frustrating. But I do know that in periods of relative "detente," people from both sides have at least thought more clearly on the subject.

    So right now, we're all dug in for a ****ty little existence, based on the need for Palestinians to see their state born of blood and fire, from my perspective. After 40 years of occupation, the desire is not for negotiation. The Israeli stance is "nope. give something to get something." I support that stance.

    And no, AIPAC does not control the government and the media. Harry is technically incorrect, as the authors of this article talk about "Israel and the Israel lobby," not "Jews," controlling the media and government. Whereas Harry just says "Jews."

    I have to say (once again,) that full of hate-rhetoric as Harry is, he just cracks me up. My impression is he's too good-natured, old, and drunk to start a personal pogrom, and that's exactly how I like my anti-semites.

    Anyway, I differ with the authors on the premise of "Israeli control" just as I differ with Harry's premise of "Jewish control".

    I also differ with the authors on the premise that it is not valuable to have a steadfast ally in the Middle East, and with the premise that Jewish Americans have no right to weigh in on US-Israel relations, as Irish Americans have a right to be concerned about the fate of Ireland.

    One man's opinion.

    PFnV
     
  10. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    Exactly, and people need to stop writing off this report without reading it. The authors are not saying anything crazy like Jews control the government and media. They are saying that this lobbying group has immense control over our foreign policy, because the atmosphere for debate and cricitism is stifled due to the 'anti-semitic' card that gets pulled out whenever anyone wants to say anything against these individuals.
     
  11. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    I guess Turk is going to keep labelling me an anti-semite for questioning the influence of certain Jewish American groups and individuals.

    It's real easy to not address questions or issues, or even bother to read, and just point the finger with the dreaded anti-semite label.

    I never realized just how much of an Orwellian society we lived in until I was labelled anti-semitic by so many trigger-happy people. I guess is how Jimmy Carter and Dean Walt at Harvard Law have been character assassinated. DoubleSpeak is real, and it applies to any criticism of Jewish American influence.

    This country sucks.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2007
  12. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Stop playing the victim, and defend your premise. You've got an open invitation in your other, more provocative thread. As I said there, your thinking on the matter is seizing on a very simplistic intersection, that of Jews who are also Influential.

    If you're a bigot, "Influential Jews" is frought with all sorts of dangers. If you're not, you see Influential Jews behaving in all manner of ways: right wing, (more often) left wing, selfishly, selflessly, in short, just like any other people.

    I'll let you reply there, on that subject. Why double up.

    Here, I do not see Turk labeling you as anything, I just see you having problems with myself and Snake.

    Yeah, Mav, "this country sucks." Nobody's getting on-board with the crackpot Walt and Mearsheimer article. People aren't being that easily fooled. Your righteous fear of "Influential Jews" isn't catching on.

    By the way, the New York Times lovefest sort of belies the notion that poor Walt and Mearsheimer can't get any play because "anybody who criticizes Israel is immediately bashed by everybody as anti-Semitic."

    Step back a minute. I may sound harsh when I have a point to make, but I'm really urging you to think about it.

    It might not be that "nobody gets it," or that we're all "brainwashed." It might just be that the "evidence" for Israel bleeding the U.S. dry, just isn't there. We've already discussed "Clean Break," which turns out to prove exactly the opposite of what Walt and Mearsheimer want it to prove.

    Any readers here who want to read "A Clean Break" are advised to google it for themselves. The text is readily available. The report does NOT urge that Israel persuade the US to act on its behalf. It does the opposite -- it plots out how ISRAEL should act to achieve her own objectives. The main conclusion: Israel should be LESS reliant on American aid and troops.

    The supposed "smoking gun" is that Israel recognizes the same potential enemies that the U.S. administration recognized at the time, and acted against several years later.

    Among the differences:

    - Clean Break calls for Israeli action, not US action
    - Clean Break identifies Syria, not Iraq, and the more troubling enemy
    - Where the report discusses Iraq, it talks about Turkish/Jordanian (Hashemite)/Israeli actions to destabilize the country

    The following point is at odds with the "Jews controlling American Policy" theory:

    - The main premise of Clean Break, a report prepared by a think tank, addressed to the Netanyahu government, is that Israel should not rely on the U.S. for either funding or troops.

    Why, faced with the collapse of the supposed "smoking gun" on which Walt and Mearsheimer rely so heavily, do you not re-evaluate the case?

    PFnV
     
  13. Turk

    Turk Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    I just read this thread / post, so please accept my apologies, for the late response, but where exactly did I label you or anyone else, an anti-semite?

    If anything, I have been a vocal critic of certain Israeli policies and Israel's undue influence on our foreign policy, along with you.
     
  14. PressCoverage

    PressCoverage Banned

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    odigo...

    can anyone explain why this story disappeared almost immediately, or why the FBI never released any information regarding the conclusion of their investigation into the odigo story?
     
  15. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Geez PC what's next OBL is a Mossad agent? :rolleyes:
     
  16. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I agree with the premise of the article, but it's a little too simplistic. While there is a powerful pro-Israel lobby, there's also the fact that Israel is the only country in the Middle East that has some semblance of true democracy, women's rights, anti-discrimnation laws, gay rights, and so on. Thus, Israel gets support from a variety of places:
    - pro-Israeli Americans
    - anti-Arab Americans
    - religious Americans who see Israel as fulfilling a Biblical role and feel they have a meaningful connection with Jews
    - older Americans who remember the disgrace of WWII and therefore won't turn against the Jews
    - liberal Americans who feel the Arab countries are reactionary

    Is supporting Israel in the US interest? I don't think one approach works much better than another in terms of our interests. After all, our interests are more than just oil. That said, I think a more balanced policy is one of the reasons that Carter and Clinton were able to make more progress in the region than other presidents.
     
  17. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    PressCoverage, I don't know about that odigo story, but if true this isn't the first time the US government has suppressed information that would be embarassing for our very good friend Israel.

    Just look up the USS Liberty and how our own government took steps to cover up the deaths of all those sailors in order to protect Israel from the embarassment of intentionally killing Americans.
     
  18. PressCoverage

    PressCoverage Banned

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    ok very well... no one wants to get their head around the Odigo thing, so some of you can chalk it up as yet another coincidence i suppose... let's move on to the next "coincidence"...

    can anyone explain away the five dancing Israelis across the river in N.J. as the buildings fell, and perhaps tell us how/why they 1) had video survelliance equipment set up as the the attacks happened, 2) why they lied about being "tourists"; 3) why were they quietly released after at least two of them being revealed as Mossad agents?
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2007
  19. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    Again, PC, I don't know if this happened or not, if it did happen it's been covered up so well that the issue is pretty much buried in terms of being important. If it is true, it was covered up just as well as with what happened with the American USS Liberty.
     
  20. PressCoverage

    PressCoverage Banned

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    it happened, it is documented fact.... it's just a matter of how people explain each scenario to themselves... whether they view each as innocuous, or extremely dubious to the point of criminal conspiracy...

    somehow, over a dozen "coincidences" eventually must become something else, even among the most addled of the "Lemming effected"...
     

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